Practise vs suttra

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Practise vs suttra

Postby lppaefans » Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:47 am

All,

I have a question to all.

I am buddhist and i believed one buddhist must do personal cultivation. That is important. To follow the 5 precepts and 8 noble truths.
I am a man who is not well vserse in suttra at all but i like reading Buddha simple short quotes and great monks quotes, i will try to put in practicse.
I like those tudong monks trainning in North east thailand with AC Mun line down. They practise in mindfulness and mind awareness.

A group of buddhism friends then told me that by doing cultrivation alone is not enough. one must be well verse in suttra.
that also applies to two monk masters reply too. One told me to practise yet the other told me to read sutta...

My feels is : Are By knowing the suttra alone, is that important??
I am a man who only goes for practise and not theory.
anyway, i a begineer. :namaste: :namaste:

am i wrong??
by well verse in suttra but without praticsing, can one get enlighten?

hope to hear more views ya. :console: :console:

hahahahaha :jumping: :jumping: :jumping:

sadhu sadhu sadhu.
User avatar
lppaefans
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:06 am
Location: Singapore

Re: Practise vs suttra

Postby Ben » Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:11 am

Hi lppaefans

For many years I practiced meditation without referring to the Tipitaka. But since starting to become familiar with the Suttas and some of the early commentaries, I feel my understanding has deepened profoundly. There is a natural complement between pariyatti (study) and pattipati (practice). So these days I would recommend to anyone to study the suttas as well as maintain their practice. If you want to, you are welcome to join our small sutta study group here at Dhamma Wheel. We are discussing one sutta every week with a link to an online version of the sutta: viewforum.php?f=25
Metta

Ben
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

- Hereclitus


Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR
Buddhist Life Stories of Australia

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com
User avatar
Ben
Site Admin
 
Posts: 16070
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: Land of the sleeping gods

Re: Practise vs suttra

Postby lppaefans » Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:14 am

Ben wrote:Hi lppaefans

For many years I practiced meditation without referring to the Tipitaka. But since starting to become familiar with the Suttas and some of the early commentaries, I feel my understanding has deepened profoundly. There is a natural complement between pariyatti (study) and pattipati (practice). So these days I would recommend to anyone to study the suttas as well as maintain their practice. If you want to, you are welcome to join our small sutta study group here at Dhamma Wheel. We are discussing one sutta every week with a link to an online version of the sutta: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewforum.php?f=25
Metta

Ben



ben,

thanks for you good feedback...
i will look into the online version.
take care. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
User avatar
lppaefans
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:06 am
Location: Singapore

Re: Practise vs suttra

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Jan 30, 2009 8:36 am

I think practice is more important than study, but study is useful.

a monk advised me a couple of years ago to study the Satipatthana Sutta as it is the principle teaching on Mindfulness. quite a few translations are on Access to Insight, and not to worry about the rest too much but a grounding in the suttas would be helpful a book by Bhikkhu Bodhi In the buddha words has a good cross section of suttas and access to insight has a good selection also.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
User avatar
Cittasanto
 
Posts: 5743
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin

Re: Practise vs suttra

Postby kc2dpt » Fri Jan 30, 2009 2:36 pm

lppaefans wrote:A group of buddhism friends then told me that by doing cultrivation alone is not enough. one must be well verse in suttra.
that also applies to two monk masters reply too. One told me to practise yet the other told me to read sutta...

My feels is : Are By knowing the suttra alone, is that important??

Knowing the teachings and not practicing them is worthless.
Practicing without knowing the teachings is stumbling around in the dark without a guide.
Knowing the teachings and practicing them is the best way to go.

Now... what does it mean to "know the teachings"? Does one need to memorize all the scriptures? No. One merely needs instruction from a good teacher or a good book. Reading the scriptures for oneself can be very helpful but I don't believe it is necessary as long as your teacher, or the author of the books you read, is giving you instruction well grounded in those scriptures.

I am a man who only goes for practise and not theory.

Knowing the theory which underlies your practice will be immensely helpful.

anyway, i a begineer. :namaste: :namaste:

by well verse in suttra but without praticsing, can one get enlighten?

Has anyone advised you to become well versed in sutra and not practice?
Or have people advised you to study sutra in addition to your practice?
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
User avatar
kc2dpt
 
Posts: 956
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:48 pm

Re: Practise vs suttra

Postby bodom » Fri Jan 30, 2009 2:44 pm

Ajahn Chah had a lot to say on this:

"Outward scriptural study is not important. Of course, the Dhamma books are correct, but they are not right. They cannot give you right understanding. To see the word anger in print is not the same as experiencing anger. Only experiencing yourself can give you the true faith."

"Read yourself, not books. Truth isn't outside, that's only memory, not wisdom. Memory without wisdom is like an empty thermos bottle - if you don't fill it, it's useless."

"Only one book is worth reading, the heart."

"Whatever we do, we should see ourselves. Reading books doesn't ever give rise to anything. The days pass by, but we don't see ourselves. Knowing about practice is practising in order to know."

"Do you know where it will end? Or will you just keep on studying like this? ...Or is there an end to it? ... That's okay but it's the external study, not the internal study. For the internal study you have to study these eyes, these ears, this nose, this tongue, this body and this mind. This is the real study. The study of books is just the external study, it's really hard to get it finished."

"You have already studied and read about paticcasamuppada (Dependent Origination) in the books, and what's set out there is correct as far as it goes, but in reality you're not able to keep up with the process as it actually occurs. It's like falling out of a tree: in a flash, you've fallen all the way from the top of the tree and hit the ground, and you have no idea how many branches you passed on the way down. When the mind experiences an arammana [1] (mind-object) and is attracted to it, all of a sudden you find yourself experiencing a good mood without being aware of the causes and conditions which led up to it. Of course, on one level the process happens according to the theory described in the scriptures, but at the same time it goes beyond the limitations of the theory. In reality, there are no signs telling you that now it's avijja, now it's sankhara, then it's viññana, now it's nama-rupa and so on. These scholars who see it like that, don't get the chance to read out the list as the process is taking place. Although the Buddha analysed one moment of consciousness and described all the different component parts, to me it's more like falling out of a tree – everything happens so fast you don't have time to reckon how far you've fallen and where you are at any given moment. What you know is that you've hit the ground with a thud, and it hurts!"

"What takes place in the mind is similar. Normally, when you experience suffering, all you really see is the end result, that there is suffering, pain, grief and despair present in the mind. You don't really know where it came from – that's not something you can find in the books. There's nowhere in the books where the intricate details of your suffering and it's causes are described. The reality follows along the same course as the theory outlined in the scriptures, but those who simply study the books and never get beyond them, are unable to keep track of these things as they actually happen in reality."

Study is important, but its not the whole practice. There should be a balance. A Middle Way.

:namaste:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
User avatar
bodom
 
Posts: 4604
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Practise vs suttra

Postby jcsuperstar » Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:13 pm

i wonder what books lp chah is talking about...
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
User avatar
jcsuperstar
 
Posts: 1915
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:15 am
Location: alaska

Re: Practise vs suttra

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:15 pm

The best way is to find the correct balance between meditation and sutta study.
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3479
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: Practise vs suttra

Postby cooran » Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:28 pm

Hello all,

In the progress of the disciple, there are three stages that may be
distinguished: theory, practice and realization i.e. (1) learning
the wording of the doctrine (pariyatti), (2) practising it
(patipatti), (3) penetrating it (pativedha) and realising its goal.
(Nyanatiloka)

Scholars and Meditators AN VI.46

'Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Venerable Mahaacunda was
dwelling at Sahaajaati among the Ceti people. There he addressed the
monks thus:
"Friends, there are monks who are keen on Dhamma and they disparage
those monks who are meditators, saying: "Look at those monks! They
thing, "We are meditating, we are meditating!" And so they meditate
to and mediate from meditate up and meditate down! What, then, do
they meditate about and why do they meditate?' Thereby neither these
monks keen on Dhamma nor the meditators will be pleased, and they
will not be practising for the welfare and happiness of the
multitude, for the good of the multitude, for the welfare and
happiness of devas and humans.
"Then, friends, there are meditating monks who disparage the monks
who are keen on Dhamma, saying: 'Look at those monks! They thing "We
are Dhamma-experts, we are Dhamma-experts!" And therefore they are
conceited, puffed up and vain; they are talkative and voluble. They
are devoid of mindfulness and clear comprehension, and they lack
concentration; their thoughts wander and their senses are
uncontrolled. What then makes them Dhamma-experts, why and how are
they Dhamma-experts?' Thereby neither these meditating monks nor
those keen on Dhamma will be pleased, and they will not be
practising for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, for the
good of the multitude, for the welfare and happiness of devas and
humans.
"There are Dhamma-experts who praise only monks who are also Dhamma-
experts but not those who are meditators. And there are meditators
who praise only those monks who are also meditators but not those
who are Dhamma-experts. Thereby neither of them will be pleased, and
they will not be practising for the welfare and happiness of the
multitude, for the good of the multitude, for the welfare and
happiness of devas and humans.
"Therefore, friends, you should train yourselves thus: 'Though we
ourselves are Dhamma-experts, we will practise also those monks who
are meditators.' Any why? Such outstanding men are rare in the world
who have personal experience of the deathless element (Nibbaana).
'And the other monks, too, should train themselves thus: 'Though we
ourselves are meditators, we will praise also those monks who are
Dhamma-experts.' And why? Such outstanding persons are rare in the
world who can by their wisdom clearly understand a difficult
subject."
----------------------------------
On first reading it, we may appreciate the reminders for tolerance and respect and wise speech in regard to those who appear to follow different paths. It should
also be noted how useless bickering and disparaging of others are.
How easily these can lead to pride and 'puffing-up'. These are useful reminders at any level.
When we just read a translation like this, it is easy to take 'scholars' for being those who are experts in book-learning without any 'inner' developed wisdom and it is easy to take 'meditators' for being those who do not study and who merely follow a 'practice'.

If we really wish to know more about these two groups (of monks) who
should be highly respected, we need to look at the Pali and
commentary notes, I think.

The Pali term for the first group is 'dhammayoga' . B.Bodhi adds 'AA
says the term refers to preachers (dhamma-kathika). The second group
of 'meditators'refers those who have attained jhanas. Obviously
neither group are arahants, otherwise there would not have been any
dispute.

From the commentary notes, it seems that the second group,
the 'meditators'have already realized the jhanas and they 'touch the
deathless (amata) element by nama-kaya, (The mental body
i.e.cetasikas)' The Dhammayoga bhikkus (the ones dedicated to Dhamma
or the Scholars)"penetrate the deep meaning of the khandas
(aggregates), the dhatus (elements) the ayatanas
(sense fields). They clearly see it by magga-citta
(i.e the citta that experiences nibbana) together with
vipassana panna. But here it should be panna which
penetrates by considering, and also panna on the level
of asking questions and learning" Commentary ends.

The last part of the sutta about the Dhammayoga Bhikkhus says 'Such
outstanding persons are rare in the world who can by their wisdom
(panna) clearly understand a difficult subject' (i.e realize
nibbana).

Obviously there is no suggestion that this is merely an intellectual
approach. How could Nibbana be realized if it were? Likewise, Those
who have jhana experience and have attained at least the first stage
of enlightenment should be highly respected.
(including comments from from a post by Sarah Abbott at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastu ... sage/33934 )
==========================
Irrespective of whether one believes in a particular set practice,
or not, - the great importance of pariyatti, study, has been
emphasised by the Blessed One.

"Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will listen when discourses
that are words of the Tathagata -- deep, deep in their meaning,
transcendent, connected with emptiness -- are being recited. We will
lend ear, will set our hearts on knowing them, will regard these
teachings as worth grasping & mastering.' That's how you should
train yourselves."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/su ... 0-007.html

---------
As you will see, the word "dhamma" in these passages seems to refer
to a very carefully crafted curriculum of teachings, and that there
was a great concern that this body of material be accurately and
precisely communicated from teacher to student. The realization in
personal experience and the integrity of intention also seem to be
areas of particular concern in the ancient context, as they are
today.

Teaching the Dhamma Anguttara Nikaya 5:159
It is not easy to teach dhamma to others.
Concerning the teaching of dhamma to others, only after five things
have been internally established is dhamma to be taught to others.
What five?
1. "I shall speak a graduated discourse…"
2. "I shall speak a discourse that is insightfully-arranged…"
3. "I shall speak a discourse grounded upon caring…"
4. "I shall speak a discourse without motivation for personal gain…"
5. "I shall speak a discourse without disparaging myself or others…"
…thus is dhamma to be taught to others.

Confusing the True Dhamma Anguttara Nikaya 5:154
These five things, monks, incline toward the confusion and the
disappearance of the true dhamma. What five? When the monks:
1. do not carefully hear the dhamma,
2. do not carefully learn the dhamma,
3. do not carefully retain the dhamma,
4. do not carefully investigate the significance of the retained
dhamma, and
5. do not carefully know what is significant and practice the dhamma
according to dhamma.

Anguttara Nikaya 5:155
These five things, monks, incline toward the confusion and the
disappearance of the true dhamma. What five? When the monks:
1. do not learn the dhamma: [i.e., the] discourses, poems, refrains,
verses, utterances, stories, birth-tales, marvels, expositions;
2. do not teach to others in detail the dhamma as they have heard it
and as they have understood it;
3. do not make others speak in detail the dhamma as they have heard
it and as they have understood it;
4. do not recite together in detail the dhamma as they have heard it
and as they have understood it;
5. do not mentally think about and ponder upon, do not consider with
the mind, the dhamma as they have heard it and as they have
understood it.

Anguttara Nikaya 5:156
These five things, monks, incline toward the confusion and the
disappearance of the true dhamma. What five?
1. When monks mis-understand the discourses they have learned, mis-
arranging the words and letters, and then misconstrue the meaning of
the mis-arranged words and letters.
2. When monks mis-speak, do things that constitute mis-behavior, are
endowed with a lack of patience/forbearance, and possess little
talent for grasping the teaching.
3. When the monks who have learned much, who have received what has
been passed down, who have retained the dhamma, the vinaya and the
manuals, —they do not make others carefully speak the discourses;
and because of their lapse the discourses become something with its
roots severed, without a refuge.
4. When the senior monks live in luxury, take the lead in falling
into laxity, lay aside the responsibility of dwelling in seclusion,
and no longer put forth effort: to attain what has not yet been
attained, to achieve what has not yet been achieved, to experience
what has not yet been experienced.
5. When the community is divided. When the community is divided,
then there is shouting at one another, there is blaming one another,
there is closing in on one another, there is giving up on one
another. Those who are not clear do not get clear there, and the few
who are clear become otherwise.

Gradual Sayings (III, Book of the Fives, Ch XXI, Kimbila, §
2, ³On hearing Dhamma²):
Monks, there are these five advantages from hearing Dhamma. What
five?
He hears things not heard; purges things heard; dispels doubt; makes
straight his view; and his heart becomes calm. Verily, monks, these
are the
five advantages from hearing Dhamma.

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
User avatar
cooran
 
Posts: 7517
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Practise vs suttra

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Jan 31, 2009 12:52 am

Greetings lppaefans,

lppaefans wrote:hope to hear more views ya. :console: :console:


Here's something I posted elsewhere a little while ago...

I just wanted to open up a discussion on the sharp distinction some people seem to draw between "learning" (e.g. sutta study, Dhamma talks, Dhamma books) and "daily practice" (e.g. daily mindfulness, right speech, right action).

To me, this distinction is something of a false duality, as if what exists in the suttas has no bearing on daily practice, and that one's daily practice is isolated from anything that the Buddha taught. Having read my fair share of suttas and taken on board many of their teachings in daily practice, I have come to see that any kind of mutually exclusive distinction between the two is false.

The Buddha taught topics like anatta, dependent origination, anicca, the elements and so on because they are relevant to our daily practice! They're not little philosophical treatises for us to scratch our chins over, and pontificate about whether we agree of not - they are guides to practice. The suttas, the Dhamma books and the Dhamma talks are the manuals, and the practice is the implementation of those teachings.

To implement the teachings, you need to know the teachings, and to know the teachings, you have to implement them. The relationship between the two (in terms of realisation) is symbiotic and should not be torn apart.

Likewise, if someone expresses an interest in discussing one aspect more than the other, it is not logical at all to conclude that they have no interest in the other. If someone for example does investigate and study the suttas, it's generally because they've found a practical application for those very teachings and have obtained benefits by incorporating them into their daily practice. Realising the benefits, they return to the well in search of more.

However, if through introspection, you realise that in your practice you are giving excessive priority to one over the other, then it would be worth looking into whether a more even balance could help advance your progress.

Any thoughts, comments, rebuttals and questions all welcome.


Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14655
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Practise vs suttra

Postby robertk » Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:00 pm

If you want the genuine Theravada perspective then this is summed up in the ancient Commentary below (translated by Venerable Dhammanando)

As you see even in ancient times there were Bhikkhus who were confused about this matter until it was properly explained.
Pariyatti as the Root of the Sāsanā

(From the Atthakathā to Anguttara Nikāya, Ekanipāta, Dutiyapamādādivagga, 42nd sutta)




And in that place [Maṇḍalārāma Monastery in Kallagāma] there arose a discussion among the elders as to whether the root of the Dispensation consisted in practice (paṭipatti) or in study of the Teaching (pariyatti). Those elders who were wearers of rag-robes said, “practice is the root,” and those elders who were teachers of Dhamma said, “study is the root.”

Then some elders said, “we cannot decide between your two opinions merely on the basis of your assertions. Support them by quoting a saying spoken by the Conqueror.”

“It will be no trouble to quote a saying,” replied both sides. Then the elders who were wearers of rag-robes quoted these passages:

“Subhadda, if bhikkhus in this very Dispensation were to live rightly, the world would not be empty of arahants.”

“Your majesty, the Teacher’s Dispensation is rooted in practice and has practice as its pith. While practice is maintained, the Dispensation lasts.”

After listening to these sayings, the elders who were teachers of Dhamma then quoted this saying as proof of their own claim:

“For as long the Suttantas endure, for as long as the Vinaya is taught,
For just that long will there be light, like that after the sun has risen.
But when the Suttantas are no more, and when the Vinaya is forgotten,
There will be darkness in the world, like that after the sun has set.
While the Suttantas are protected, then is practice protected too;
A sage, being grounded in practice, fails not to reach peace from the bonds.”

When this saying was quoted, the elders who were wearers of rag-robes became silent and the speech of the teachers of Dhamma prevailed.

Neither among a hundred bulls, nor among a thousand, will even a single bull ensure the continuance of his line in the absence of a cow. Even so, neither among a hundred bhikkhus intent on insight, nor among a thousand, will even a single bhikkhu penetrate the noble path in the absence of pariyatti.

Marks are engraved in rock to show the location of buried treasure; for as long as those marks endure, the treasure is not reckoned as lost. Even so, for as long as pariyatti endures, the Teacher’s Dispensation is not reckoned to have disappeared.
(Manorathapūraṇī i. 92-3, )
User avatar
robertk
 
Posts: 1246
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: Practise vs suttra

Postby bodom » Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:08 pm

It depends on peoples dispositions. Some are more inclined to book study while others more inclined practice. A good practice should include both. Sooo, we are back where we started, the middle way.

:namaste:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
User avatar
bodom
 
Posts: 4604
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Practise vs suttra

Postby kc2dpt » Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:14 pm

bodom_bad_boy wrote:It depends on peoples dispositions. Some are more inclined to book study while others more inclined practice. A good practice should include both. Sooo, we are back where we started, the middle way.

I would put it another way:
Some need a lot of study, some need only a little study, some need only to hear one verse. But all need to hear something. This is the function of a Buddha arising in the world: that we may hear what we need to awaken.

When I say "study is necessary" I do not mean "this many hours of study are necessary". I simply mean some amount is necessary. Even those that assert "no study is necessary" when pressed will admit they have heard at least one verse.
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
User avatar
kc2dpt
 
Posts: 956
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:48 pm

Re: Practise vs suttra

Postby bodom » Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:22 pm

Peter wrote:
bodom_bad_boy wrote:It depends on peoples dispositions. Some are more inclined to book study while others more inclined practice. A good practice should include both. Sooo, we are back where we started, the middle way.

I would put it another way:
Some need a lot of study, some need only a little study, some need only to hear one verse. But all need to hear something. This is the function of a Buddha arising in the world: that we may hear what we need to awaken.

When I say "study is necessary" I do not mean "this many hours of study are necessary". I simply mean some amount is necessary. Even those that assert "no study is necessary" when pressed will admit they have heard at least one verse.


Even the devil can quote scripture. Not saying theres a devil or anyone is a devil or anything haha but i find it to be a useful and relevant quote peter.

:namaste:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
User avatar
bodom
 
Posts: 4604
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Practise vs suttra

Postby kc2dpt » Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:36 am

bodom_bad_boy wrote:Even the devil can quote scripture.

What this quote means is "Studying scripture is not enough; one must practice as well." Since no one here is advocating "study and no practice" I do not understand why you bring it up.

Honestly, if you still have a problem with my position even after my previous post then I have nothing more to say to you on the matter. Don't study, continue to dissuade others from studying, do what you want. I think you harm yourself and those around you, but that is your prerogative.
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
User avatar
kc2dpt
 
Posts: 956
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:48 pm

Re: Practise vs suttra

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:10 am

Peter wrote:
bodom_bad_boy wrote:Even the devil can quote scripture.

What this quote means is "Studying scripture is not enough; one must practice as well." Since no one here is advocating "study and no practice" I do not understand why you bring it up.

Honestly, if you still have a problem with my position even after my previous post then I have nothing more to say to you on the matter. Don't study, continue to dissuade others from studying, do what you want. I think you harm yourself and those around you, but that is your prerogative.



The quote by Bodom could mean (as it is from the Christian tradition this is the meaning they give)just because you can quote from scripture doesn't mean you know the meaning of the words, or just because you can quote the scripture doesn't mean the meaning is not misrepresented.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
User avatar
Cittasanto
 
Posts: 5743
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin

Re: Practise vs suttra

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:15 am

Greetings,

Manapa wrote:The quote by Bodom could mean (as it is from the Christian tradition this is the meaning they give)just because you can quote from scripture doesn't mean you know the meaning of the words, or just because you can quote the scripture doesn't mean the meaning is not misrepresented.


Yes. It could also mean that whilst someone reads words, they don't put them into practice.

I think somewhere in the Canon there's a simile of a flower with no fragrance, which communicates a similar message.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14655
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Practise vs suttra

Postby lppaefans » Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:28 am

All,

thanks for all comments...

my feels, as long we, the buddhist, we know where we are heading to and may it be well verse in theory or well practise in actions. our main motivations counts ya.

we follow the triple gems with understanding the 4 noble truth and with 8 noble paths as a guide..

everyone have the respective practise...

wish all have a good life training. :clap: :clap:
User avatar
lppaefans
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:06 am
Location: Singapore

Re: Practise vs suttra

Postby bodom » Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:42 pm

Manapa wrote:
Peter wrote:
bodom_bad_boy wrote:Even the devil can quote scripture.

What this quote means is "Studying scripture is not enough; one must practice as well." Since no one here is advocating "study and no practice" I do not understand why you bring it up.

Honestly, if you still have a problem with my position even after my previous post then I have nothing more to say to you on the matter. Don't study, continue to dissuade others from studying, do what you want. I think you harm yourself and those around you, but that is your prerogative.



The quote by Bodom could mean (as it is from the Christian tradition this is the meaning they give)just because you can quote from scripture doesn't mean you know the meaning of the words, or just because you can quote the scripture doesn't mean the meaning is not misrepresented.


Yes Manapa and Retro that is exactly what i meant. Sorry for being vague and apologies to anyone who took it the wrong way. I would never ever dissuade anyone from studying the teachings and am sorry i am being accused of such. Study is important. Where else would one start? I have read and studied numerous books, suttas and commentaries and still do. However, book knowledge without putting forth the effort to practice what you have learned is useless. The pali canon was not compiled and saved for countless generations to use as coffee table reading. It was compiled to show us how to practice. I will reiterate my point , knowledge comes from books, wisdom comes from direct experience. The teachings are to be used as a stepping stone to wisdom or as a map. Once you have reached your intended destination you have no further need for the map.

:namaste:
Last edited by bodom on Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
User avatar
bodom
 
Posts: 4604
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Practise vs suttra

Postby bodom » Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:10 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Manapa wrote:The quote by Bodom could mean (as it is from the Christian tradition this is the meaning they give)just because you can quote from scripture doesn't mean you know the meaning of the words, or just because you can quote the scripture doesn't mean the meaning is not misrepresented.


Yes. It could also mean that whilst someone reads words, they don't put them into practice.

I think somewhere in the Canon there's a simile of a flower with no fragrance, which communicates a similar message.

Metta,
Retro. :)


Is this the quote you are reffering too Retro?

51. Like a beautiful flower full of color but without fragrance, even so, fruitless are the fair words of one who does not practice them.

52. Like a beautiful flower full of color and also fragrant, even so, fruitful are the fair words of one who practices them.

Dhp IV

See, so i have and do study the scripture! :rofl: Especially the Dhammapada which i love to read everyday and use as a guide in my practice.

:namaste:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
User avatar
bodom
 
Posts: 4604
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Next

Return to General Theravāda discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests