Day-to-Day Practice Issues vs. Everything Else

[christopher:::]

Do any of you feel that sometimes we can get lost in interesting topics which have little to do with our day-to-day practice of the dhamma? If so, why is that? If not, what is the value of arguing and debating topics not directly related to our practice in this moment?

[tiltbillings]

Do any of you feel that sometimes we can get lost in interesting topics which have little to do with our day-to-day practice of the dhamma? If so, why is that? If not, what is the value of arguing and debating topics not directly related to our practice in this moment?

On the other hand who is to judge that a debate or a discussion is not directly related to our practice in the moment? Are you in a position to say this or that discussion has no value for my practice?

[christopher:::]

On the other hand who is to judge that a debate or a discussion is not directly related to our practice in the moment? Are you in a position to say this or that discussion has no value for my practice?

LOL, no tilt. That's why I phrased the OP as a question, rather than a statement.

[tiltbillings]

On the other hand who is to judge that a debate or a discussion is not directly related to our practice in the moment? Are you in a position to say this or that discussion has no value for my practice?

LOL, no tilt. That's why I phrased the OP as a question, rather than a statement.

But asking a question can be a way of making a statement and implying a criticism.

[christopher:::]

But asking a question can be a way of making a statement and implying a criticism.

True.

But it can also be an attempt to seek reflection and input from others. I'm still very much a beginner here...

[jcsuperstar]

i thought getting lost and then coming back was the practice...

[BlackBird]

Do any of you feel that sometimes we can get lost in interesting topics which have little to do with our day-to-day practice of the dhamma?

Topics of conversation are only the tip of the iceburg. How many of us can say we spend all our waking moments engaged in one skillful activity or another? I can only speak for myself when I say that since the beginning of my life through to this very moment, the majority of my actions have been rooted in greed, hatred and delusion.

A friend told me an interesting story the other day about a man who ran a community garden here in Dunedin, offering free fruit and vege to anyone who wanted it. He was also on the unemployment benefit, and had no intention of finding a job. He justified his unwillingness to get off the benefit by his giving through the community garden, which he funded from his dole money. Now my friend had a problem with this, she said it was abusing the system, that if he really wanted to help people he'd get a job and go and do it, after all she argued: "the unemployment benefit is supposed to be a safety net, a bridge to help you get a new job."

My response was that, sure - It was an abuse of the system, it wasn't how the politicians had intended her taxpayer money to be spent, but to look at the whole picture. There are tens of thousands of people on the unemployment benefit in NZ. Some people are 2nd and 3rd generation dole-bludgers, some spend most of their dole money on booze while their kids go without food to eat in the morning. Here's a man who was using his dole to give people fresh fruit and veges... So what's the priority here? Do we go after fruit-n-vege man, or do we go after the "Jake Heke's" of the world?

You could liken our occasional frivolous conversations here to the fruit-n-vege man, sure it's not always skillful or productive, but for me there's far more sinister manifestations of defilement coming into play in my daily life. Plant analogy? Pulling the plant up by it's roots, as opposed to picking off a leaf.

metta
Jack

[Cittasanto]

Hi jack, and all,
every action has a skill to it.
that doesn't mean the skill is skillful, but if the action leads to refining the skillful qualities already present, or developing skilful qualities not present then even an unskilful action has its benefits!

[Wind]

Do any of you feel that sometimes we can get lost in interesting topics which have little to do with our day-to-day practice of the dhamma?

Topics of conversation are only the tip of the iceburg. How many of us can say we spend all our waking moments engaged in one skillful activity or another? I can only speak for myself when I say that since the beginning of my life through to this very moment, the majority of my actions have been rooted in greed, hatred and delusion.

A friend told me an interesting story the other day about a man who ran a community garden here in Dunedin, offering free fruit and vege to anyone who wanted it. He was also on the unemployment benefit, and had no intention of finding a job. He justified his unwillingness to get off the benefit by his giving through the community garden, which he funded from his dole money. Now my friend had a problem with this, she said it was abusing the system, that if he really wanted to help people he'd get a job and go and do it, after all she argued: "the unemployment benefit is supposed to be a safety net, a bridge to help you get a new job."

My response was that, sure - It was an abuse of the system, it wasn't how the politicians had intended her taxpayer money to be spent, but to look at the whole picture. There are tens of thousands of people on the unemployment benefit in NZ. Some people are 2nd and 3rd generation dole-bludgers, some spend most of their dole money on booze while their kids go without food to eat in the morning. Here's a man who was using his dole to give people fresh fruit and veges... So what's the priority here? Do we go after fruit-n-vege man, or do we go after the "Jake Heke's" of the world?

You could liken our occasional frivolous conversations here to the fruit-n-vege man, sure it's not always skillful or productive, but for me there's far more sinister manifestations of defilement coming into play in my daily life. Plant analogy? Pulling the plant up by it's roots, as opposed to picking off a leaf.

metta
Jack

How long does the unemployment benefits last in NZ? It doesn't last forever does it? Btw, I had always wanted to grow a garden so I can give my veggies and fruits away but of course I would fund it with my own hard earn money or donations

[Vardali]

Do any of you feel that sometimes we can get lost in interesting topics which have little to do with our day-to-day practice of the dhamma? If so, why is that? If not, what is the value of arguing and debating topics not directly related to our practice in this moment?

I guess the mind is looking for stimulus and entertainment, so intense discussion does provide some. At least this seems to hold true for my mind. I am trying not to indulge into this too much, because I am aware that it's mostly fruitless to me.
But I cannot fully abstain (yet)

[Fede]

Actually, at the risk of making myself sound like a sycophantic sucker-up, I'm with Tiltbillings, here.

The Buddha taught us about the origin and cessation of suffering, and illustrated that we lead lives through the three poisons.... and as such, gave us a remedy, an antidote.
This wasn't something to be taken three times a day, with meals, and with a glass of water....
This is a remedy we need to take, orally, intravenously, topically, through ingestion, libation and inhalation all the time....
So actually, every moment of dialogue, exchange, interaction and engagement with another person, via whichever medium you wish to mention, within any given topic of discussion, is an opportunity to be mindful, and to practice.
Right View, Right Intention, Right Speech, Right action, Right Livelihood, Right Effort, Right Awareness, Right Meditation.
All of these, are part of every single discussion.

Adhering to them, is the practice.
Practising them, is continuous.
not Continual.

[Kim O'Hara]

Also, it's good not to let the best be the enemy of the good.
Don't let the fact that you're not meditating when you're hanging out here stop you from hanging out with dhamma friends and helping newcomers.
Be honest: would you really be meditating right now if you weren't visiting DW right now? And this is surely better for you than sitting in front of the TV or going down to the pub.


Kim

[rowyourboat]

ok then, take one thing away from each thread that you participate it and use it in your daily practice. bear it in your mind and mindfulness and use it to change yourself as a person.

yes agreed, we are not axe murderers, but is this just dhamma entertainment? More consumption, no real change?

[BlackBird]

How long does the unemployment benefits last in NZ? It doesn't last forever does it?

It lasts forever w/ strings.

[catmoon]

When I started out on the net, I would go hammer and tongs at any statement that seemed wrong to me. It was all about finding incorrectness and destroying it. Not only I, but some of our moderators used to play this game! There were some exciting battles.

But as Dharma takes hold, the battles lose their appeal as you start to see the harm they do. Intellectual jousting starts to seem irrelevant, too.

[christopher:::]

Don't let the fact that you're not meditating when you're hanging out here stop you from hanging out with dhamma friends and helping newcomers.
Be honest: would you really be meditating right now if you weren't visiting DW right now? And this is surely better for you than sitting in front of the TV or going down to the pub.

Helping others is a definite dharma activity. True, Kim, meditating is the one thing we cannot do here while reading and writing, but there are a great many dharma factors that can be cultivated and practiced when we participate here. Metta, karuna, mudita, mindfulness, uppheka, right speech, right intention, etc...

When I started out on the net, I would go hammer and tongs at any statement that seemed wrong to me. It was all about finding incorrectness and destroying it. Not only I, but some of our moderators used to play this game! There were some exciting battles.

But as Dharma takes hold, the battles lose their appeal as you start to see the harm they do. Intellectual jousting starts to seem irrelevant, too.

Yeah, i think this can be a real trap. I've been a moderator, and you sometimes feel you need to correct errors, set people straight. And it's important, but how important? What can happen is that practice related discussions in a forum can get ignored, where people are seeking guidance on their day-to-day implementation of the dharma.

This is where mindfulness of the big picture is essential. If a topic is moving at high speed, with multiple mods and "advanced" dharma students joining in, it sometimes might be helpful to take a step back. Consider, is this really the best use of my time and attention? And, why do i feel motivated to participate here, is there any ego involved?

ok then, take one thing away from each thread that you participate it and use it in your daily practice. bear it in your mind and mindfulness and use it to change yourself as a person.

yes agreed, we are not axe murderers, but is this just dhamma entertainment? More consumption, no real change?

Some good pot stirring there, ryb.

[Clueless Git]

Do any of you feel that sometimes we can get lost in interesting topics which have little to do with our day-to-day practice of the dhamma? If so, why is that? If not, what is the value of arguing and debating topics not directly related to our practice in this moment?

Good topic question, I thought, Christopher

Personaly I don't think any discussion of owt but the totaly mundane is without value.

I am minded of the addage "seek to understand before you seek to be understood" ...

Personaly I find my total inability to make myself understood a usefull indicator of how little I understand.

How usefull a part of daily practice is owt which reminds us of that?