I guess, the great gift that suffering can bring (if we allow it to) is humility. It chews us up and spits us out and the end product has cracks in the illusory self. We tend to fill those in pretty quickly though.
But certainly I've seen people (and myself) going through very tough times but at the same time so brilliantly free of the usual BS... There can be a depth to suffering, a reflection that is as natural as it is pure.
On the other hand, mostly we tend to get reactive, spouting anger and blame, or seeking vengeance like that big poster that stares at me every day when I leave home (A Law Abiding Citizen).
_/|\_
PS A little Zen note (caveat lector!) in koan or hua-tou training, "suffering" is cultivated in the sense of bringing the practitioner to the edge of despair as one struggles to find the answer to the question that absorbs the questioner completely, but the answer only comes when one lets go clutching at all straws including oneself. It's the brilliant sunshine that comes after every last trick has been exhausted, every subterfuge rejected, every notion demolished, and every bit of hope has died. Nothing left to hold on to. So the house-builder gives up!
what the buddha taught
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Re: what the buddha taught
A small aside:
Tent Revival salvation comes when the penitent, the miserable sinner, sinks into the depths of despair in fear of losing his or her soul to the devil. It is through letting go of one's self-centered sinful and willful ways, giving oneself over completely to Jesus, letting Jesus fill one's heart is salvation found.Dan74 wrote:A little Zen note (caveat lector!) in koan or hua-tou training, "suffering" is cultivated in the sense of bringing the practitioner to the edge of despair as one struggles to find the answer to the question that absorbs the questioner completely, but the answer only comes when one lets go clutching at all straws including oneself. It's the brilliant sunshine that comes after every last trick has been exhausted, every subterfuge rejected, every notion demolished, and every bit of hope has died. Nothing left to hold on to. So the house-builder gives up!
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: what the buddha taught
Except where is shamatha and vipassana in this?
In koan meditation there are both.
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In koan meditation there are both.
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_/|\_
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Re: what the buddha taught
Is there? Where?Dan74 wrote:Except where is shamatha and vipassana in this?
In koan meditation there are both.
_/|\_
Actually, I am not arguing one way or another concerning koan meditation, but it is interesting that a similar dynamic seems to be at play in these very different religious experiences in terms of context, and I have seen koan practice criticized in these terms.
Also, traditionally before koans became a meditation practice, the participants in the koan dialogues where higfhly learned in Buddhist philosophical tenets, and the koan represented a doctrinal insight.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: what the buddha taught
I disagree with you last line - it was not a doctrinal insight, it was a direct insight. "Doctrinal insight" to me means intellectual understanding, this was direct understanding.
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Re: what the buddha taught
To clarify: Direct understanding of a particular aspect a particular doctrine was pointing to.Dan74 wrote:I disagree with you last line - it was not a doctrinal insight, it was a direct insight. "Doctrinal insight" to me means intellectual understanding, this was direct understanding.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: what the buddha taught
If I recall correctly, it was Ajahn Chah who said:
If you haven't wept deeply, you haven't begun to meditate
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Re: what the buddha taught
Indeed but there are always those who would prefer to think that we can go past the soup and main and straight to the pudding.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.
Bhikku Bodhi.
Bhikku Bodhi.
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Re: what the buddha taught
Buddha taught the way to getting the the "Truth"
The Truth that not depend on time
The Truth that must have see only by yourself
The Truth that not depend on time
The Truth that must have see only by yourself
Re: what the buddha taught
I'm guessing it's going to hurt even more if you step off the path before you get past the thorn bushes.appicchato wrote:Sorry...the path is full of torture, groaning, and suffering...it's only when one is liberated that these things are eliminated...then the path has been followed to the end (and the goal has been reached)...i.e. no more path...baratgab wrote:That the true path is free from torture, free from groaning and free from suffering.
My read anyway...
Re: what the buddha taught
Hiya Katersy!
I feel perfectly guiltless in my practice of cherry-picking the Dharma. I view it as a cherry tree in which some cherries are ripe and others are not. In time maybe I will see them all ripen: I do not know.
If a teaching or practice aggravates my depression, triggers anxieties or anger, then I drop it like a hot coal, or at least examine it very very carefully.
If a teaching seems in harmony with what I can demonstrate, with the beautiful flow of the teachings of lamas and ajahns and venerables, that I keep, adopt, and try to work with.
So my guiding principle is harmony, supported by analysis. Things that pass these tests I tend to regard as originating with the Buddha, although certainty is still far off.
I feel perfectly guiltless in my practice of cherry-picking the Dharma. I view it as a cherry tree in which some cherries are ripe and others are not. In time maybe I will see them all ripen: I do not know.
If a teaching or practice aggravates my depression, triggers anxieties or anger, then I drop it like a hot coal, or at least examine it very very carefully.
If a teaching seems in harmony with what I can demonstrate, with the beautiful flow of the teachings of lamas and ajahns and venerables, that I keep, adopt, and try to work with.
So my guiding principle is harmony, supported by analysis. Things that pass these tests I tend to regard as originating with the Buddha, although certainty is still far off.