Panna Gained / Panna Lost?

[Stuart]

Bhantes / All ,

I believe that I may be mistaken on a fundamental point, and I was wondering if someone could clarify this for me.

Contained within a post in another topic - http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 740#p54476" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - virgo stated:

Also, once panna is developed in the citta it doesn't really regress. Although one may not call oneself a Buddhist, and although one may be born outside the time of a Buddhasasana, panna will still arise in the citta if it has been developed. The greater the panna is, the more natural the practice of the other Perfections will be, since panna it leads and naturally brings about the practice of the other Perfections. Therefore, if one develops some wisdom in ones practice under a Buddha, you will continue to develop the Perfections, very slowly, even when born outside of the dispensation of a Buddha.

This was said in reference to panna attained before stream entry.

There seemed to be no disagreement on this point from the other contributors. I think that there even seemed to be some agreement of this view throughout the discussion (I must admit that I have only got to page 12! so far).

I have thought "for a long time" that the teaching was that - all attainments prior to the attainment of stream entry were subject to decay. However the above statement from virgo seems to imply that panna (before stream entry) is different to other attainments and accumulates without decay.

I think that I may have misunderstood what was being said. Can you help?

Stuart
xxx

[Virgo]

Bhantes / All ,

I believe that I may be mistaken on a fundamental point, and I was wondering if someone could clarify this for me.

Contained within a post in another topic - http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 740#p54476" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - virgo stated:

Also, once panna is developed in the citta it doesn't really regress. Although one may not call oneself a Buddhist, and although one may be born outside the time of a Buddhasasana, panna will still arise in the citta if it has been developed. The greater the panna is, the more natural the practice of the other Perfections will be, since panna it leads and naturally brings about the practice of the other Perfections. Therefore, if one develops some wisdom in ones practice under a Buddha, you will continue to develop the Perfections, very slowly, even when born outside of the dispensation of a Buddha.

This was said in reference to panna attained before stream entry.

There seemed to be no disagreement on this point from the other contributors. I think that there even seemed to be some agreement of this view throughout the discussion (I must admit that I have only got to page 12! so far).

I have thought "for a long time" that the teaching was that - all attainments prior to the attainment of stream entry were subject to decay. However the above statement from virgo seems to imply that panna (before stream entry) is different to other attainments and accumulates without decay.

I think that I may have misunderstood what was being said. Can you help?

Stuart
xxx

Greetings Stuart,

That is an excellent question. Panna is a a cetasika, or a mental factor that arises along with a citta. There are various mental factors that arise along with citta and they arise and pass again and again. There must be citta arising for cetasika to arise because cetasikas actually accompany cittas. Panna, as a cetasika, is a paramattha dhamma or ultimate reality. It arises and passes away extremely, extremely quickly. Each citta is influenced by the prior citta. Therefore, when there are many moments of dosa, aversion, for example, this "accumulates" in the citta and it can be said that dosa will then arise quickly or strongly because many moments of it are accumulated strongly within the citta. The citta is kind of like a storage file. This is how perception of past events can occur-- they are simply perceptions based on what is stored in the citta.

Panna can accumulate in citta. It may arise from time to time yet it is not the same panna. There are separate moments of panna that arise and fall just as quick as they come. With each time, however, panna can become keener because of the way it influences the subsequent cittas. Again, these cittas too are also impermanent realities that arise and fall again and again but they do influence each other. It is not unlike how the rupa of earth element arises again and again in a tree. When we touch a tree, it seems that we touch the same thing for a few seconds as we touch it. But in reality, hardness, the characteristic of earth element, arises and passes away again and again, extremely fast, from moment to moment, each one being conditioned, in part, by the last arising of the earth element.

Kevi

[Ben]

Hi Kevin

How does panna 'accumulate' in citta when the cetasika of panna rises and falls as quickly as they come, and cittas "arises and passes away extremely, extremely quickly."
The citta is kind of like a storage file.
Are you suggesting that citta is a de-facto atman?

I would appreciate quotations and citations from relevant scriptural sources (Tipitaka and/or early commentaries) that support your contention.
kind regards

Ben

[Virgo]

Hi Kevin

How does panna 'accumulate' in citta when the cetasika of panna rises and falls as quickly as they come, and cittas "arises and passes away extremely, extremely quickly."
The citta is kind of like a storage file.
Are you suggesting that citta is a de-facto atman?

Ben

Hi Ben,

Of course not. Each citta arsies and passes away extremely quickly and is not-self and is uncontrollable, yet it influences the next citta that arises and passes away, which is connected with it. That is how there appears to be a self, but there is not. Each one is definitely a separate moment of mind. Thus, they are not atman (a self) because even in an Arahant who has not passed into parinibbana, citta still continually arise again and again (haha-- not that the Arahant had a self before he removed the taints of course).

I will see if I can find some quotations form the Abhidhamma.

kevin

[mikenz66]

Hi Stuart,

For some Abhidhamma explanation you might see my post here:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... ead#p54324" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Actually, I'll repost the link:
Abhidhamma Studies by Nyanaponika Thera
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhistudy.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In Chapter 4, Page 111
Appendix: The omission of memory in the list

Metta
Mike

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Virgo,

Of course not. Each citta arsies and passes away extremely quickly and is not-self and is uncontrollable, yet it influences the next citta that arises and passes away, which is connected with it. That is how there appears to be a self, but there is not. Each one is definitely a separate moment of mind. Thus, they are not atman (a self) because even in an Arahant who has not passed into parinibbana, citta still continually arise again and again (haha-- not that the Arahant had a self before he removed the taints of course).

That explains well that you're endorsing anatta over atman, but still doesn't seem to address how "panna can accumulate in citta." On face value, this arising and passing away you describe doesn't seem consistent with the notion of 'accumulation', which would seem to be more a case of 'arising and maintaining' or 'arising and growing'.

I will see if I can find some quotations form the Abhidhamma.

If you have anything to address how "panna can accumulate in citta" that would be appreciated.

Metta,
Retro.

[ground]

If there are many illusions to remove each removal of an illusion may be said to be "added" to the "preceding" removal of another illusion. In that sense one may say there is an "accumulation of removals", right?

[mikenz66]

Hi Retro,

I believe you may be misunderstanding what Virgo is getting at:

If you have anything to address how "panna can accumulate in citta" that would be appreciated.

Here "citta" is plural.

Each citta arsies and passes away extremely quickly and is not-self and is uncontrollable, yet it influences the next citta that arises and passes away, which is connected with it...

As I understand it, the same sort of explanation applies to memory. Each citta influences subsequent citta (plural). This is explained better than I can do in a few words in books such as the one I mentioned in my post above.

Mike

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Mike,

I was thinking of it in the context Virgo referred to in the OP's quote...

Also, once panna is developed in the citta it doesn't really regress. Although one may not call oneself a Buddhist, and although one may be born outside the time of a Buddhasasana, panna will still arise in the citta if it has been developed. The greater the panna is, the more natural the practice of the other Perfections will be, since panna it leads and naturally brings about the practice of the other Perfections. Therefore, if one develops some wisdom in ones practice under a Buddha, you will continue to develop the Perfections, very slowly, even when born outside of the dispensation of a Buddha

That being so, this panna seems to be somehow stored, protected and accumulated by that definition... as if some kind of storehouse-consciousness (ālayavijñāna) is at play.

According to Walpola Rahula, all the elements of the Yogacara storehouse-consciousness [ālayavijñāna ] are already found in the Pali Canon. He writes that the three layers of the mind (citta, manas, and vijnana) as presented by Asanga are also used in the Pali Canon: "Thus we can see that Vijnana represents the simple reaction or response of the sense organs when they come in contact with external objects. This is the uppermost or superficial aspect or layer of the Vijnanaskanda. Manas represents the aspect of its mental functioning, thinking, reasoning, conceiving ideas, etc. Citta which is here called Alayavijnana, represents the deepest, finest and subtlest aspect or layer of the Aggregate of consciousness. It contains all the traces or impressions of the past actions and all good and bad future possibilities.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight_Consciousnesses" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The notion that panna can be added to and not lost is one I've never been exposed to previously within Buddhism, so I'm interested to see what is said in relation to it. It reminds me a little of what a friend of mine (who is of the Rigveda sect of Hinduism) says about how nirvana is attained under the Rigveda schema... through the eventual ongoing collection of wisdom and good deeds, one rises through the various castes and realms, culminating in nirvana (yet always on this upward trajectory)... though I may be mistaken, it was a conversation on a noisy train over 12 months ago.

Hence, I guess, my interest in knowing how this accumulation of panna is facilitated and supported in a Theravada sense.

Metta,
Retro.

[mikenz66]

Hi Retro,

Hence, I guess, my interest in knowing how this accumulation of panna is facilitated and supported in a Theravada sense.

Anything that continues over time, such as memory, has the same "problem". Panna is just one particular case. My understanding is that the Theravada Abhidhamma doesn't make use of a "storehouse" for memory or development of skills, but that each citta conditions subsequent cittas.

Metta
Mike

[altar]

While this isn't an explanation of the mechanism behind how it works, which seems to be what some people are asking for here, the idea that there is some kind of "accumulated" panna does seem possible to me and there is even a sutta that supports it. It is not the main point of the sutta, actually the dangers of the reverse, the loss of panna, is the point, but let me see if I can find it online. I believe I found it in the AN anthology of Nyanaponika. So it seems panna can be accumulated, but can still be lost, not quite like Retro understood. Let me see if I can find the sutta. It's in google books so I'll re-type it here, it's short. In the Chapter of the Ones.
"7. The Highest Gain
Insignificant, O monks, is the loss of relatives, wealth and fame; the loss of wisdom is the greatest loss.
Insignificant, O monks, is the increase of relatives, wealth and fame; increase of wisdom is the highest gain.
Therefore, O monks, you should train yourselves thus: "We will grow in the increase of wisdom." Thus, O monks, should you train yourselves. (i, viii, 6-10)"

[Stuart]

Greetings Stuart,

That is an excellent question. Panna is a a cetasika, or a mental factor that arises along with a citta. There are various mental factors that arise along with citta and they arise and pass again and again. There must be citta arising for cetasika to arise because cetasikas actually accompany cittas. Panna, as a cetasika, is a paramattha dhamma or ultimate reality. It arises and passes away extremely, extremely quickly. Each citta is influenced by the prior citta. Therefore, when there are many moments of dosa, aversion, for example, this "accumulates" in the citta and it can be said that dosa will then arise quickly or strongly because many moments of it are accumulated strongly within the citta. The citta is kind of like a storage file. This is how perception of past events can occur-- they are simply perceptions based on what is stored in the citta.

Panna can accumulate in citta. It may arise from time to time yet it is not the same panna. There are separate moments of panna that arise and fall just as quick as they come. With each time, however, panna can become keener because of the way it influences the subsequent cittas. Again, these cittas too are also impermanent realities that arise and fall again and again but they do influence each other. It is not unlike how the rupa of earth element arises again and again in a tree. When we touch a tree, it seems that we touch the same thing for a few seconds as we touch it. But in reality, hardness, the characteristic of earth element, arises and passes away again and again, extremely fast, from moment to moment, each one being conditioned, in part, by the last arising of the earth element.

Kevi

Hi Retro,

I believe you may be misunderstanding what Virgo is getting at:

If you have anything to address how "panna can accumulate in citta" that would be appreciated.

Here "citta" is plural.

Each citta arsies and passes away extremely quickly and is not-self and is uncontrollable, yet it influences the next citta that arises and passes away, which is connected with it...

As I understand it, the same sort of explanation applies to memory. Each citta influences subsequent citta (plural). This is explained better than I can do in a few words in books such as the one I mentioned in my post above.

Mike

Thanks Kevin / Mike ,

and thank-you again Mike for your links - I am not a 'natural' when trying to understand the Abhidhamma , but I'll give it a good go.

The main problem that I had was the first line from the quote by virgo (Kevin) in my original post (the rest of the quote was an expansion on this one line) which read:

Also, once panna is developed in the citta it doesn't really regress.

If we are saying that:

1. it is like the hardness of a tree which is sustained for a period of time, but which I can personally verify certainly does regress at a point in the future.

or

2. it is like memory, which again is sustained for a period of time, but which I can again personally verify does regress at a point in the future.

then I am happy and my understanding coincides with yours.

This is like any other skill or attainment. In this life, I can certainly learn to play the guitar and maintain that skill for the duration of my life - maybe there will even be an inclination in my next life to play guitar (if I make it into the human realm) - but 100,000,000 life times in the hell realms? Maybe, I would have lost the skill. Likewise with panna ..... until stream entry of course.

Stuart
xxx

[Stuart]

If there are many illusions to remove each removal of an illusion may be said to be "added" to the "preceding" removal of another illusion. In that sense one may say there is an "accumulation of removals", right?

TMingyur

Whether this is said in a positive way 'accumulation of wisdom' or a negative way 'removal of delusion', the point remains the same .....

Is it a permanent uprooting of delusion, which gives rise to stream entry or is it a temporary weeding of delusion that will need to be done again and again as those very same weeds of delusion once again spring up?

Stuart
xxx

[Stuart]

"7. The Highest Gain
Insignificant, O monks, is the loss of relatives, wealth and fame; the loss of wisdom is the greatest loss.
Insignificant, O monks, is the increase of relatives, wealth and fame; increase of wisdom is the highest gain.
Therefore, O monks, you should train yourselves thus: "We will grow in the increase of wisdom." Thus, O monks, should you train yourselves. (i, viii, 6-10)"

Thank-you altar

This is my understanding - "the loss of wisdom is the greatest loss"

Stuart
xxx

[Virgo]

Greetings Virgo,

Of course not. Each citta arsies and passes away extremely quickly and is not-self and is uncontrollable, yet it influences the next citta that arises and passes away, which is connected with it. That is how there appears to be a self, but there is not. Each one is definitely a separate moment of mind. Thus, they are not atman (a self) because even in an Arahant who has not passed into parinibbana, citta still continually arise again and again (haha-- not that the Arahant had a self before he removed the taints of course).

That explains well that you're endorsing atman, but still doesn't seem to address how "panna can accumulate in citta." On face value, this arising and passing away you describe doesn't seem consistent with the notion of 'accumulation', which would seem to be more a case of 'arising and maintaining' or 'arising and

Sorry Retro, did you mean to say "That explains well that you're endorsing atman", or "That explains well that you're not endorsing atman"? ... Just to clarify.

Kevin