Meditation to gain enlightenment?

[lppaefans]

All,

Hi.

i have a a question.

will mainly conducting mediation alone can leads one to enlightment?

care to share you views about this??

I have two groups of buddhist friends. One say no and one say yes.

hope to gain more replies here..

may all be happy always.

[Jechbi]

No, I don't think so. You gotta have eight spokes to support the wheel.

[lppaefans]

No, I don't think so. You gotta have eight spokes to support the wheel.

thanks for sharing..the 8 spokes are?

[jcsuperstar]

8 fold path
meditation is only two of those

but yeah, i was always curious as to just how one becomes enlightened by sitting down and shutting up... (i know i'm over simplifing)

[Cittasanto]

I agree you need the FULL Eightfold Path.

a pretty good article is on Wiki.

[fig tree]

8 fold path
meditation is only two of those

but yeah, i was always curious as to just how one becomes enlightened by sitting down and shutting up... (i know i'm over simplifing)

Consider the sutta here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an11/an11.002.than.html. It lays out a chain of cause-and-effect. The bit about knowing and seeing things as they are is rather important.

Knowing about the five hindrances also might make the relationship between meditation and seeing things as they are less puzzling. The hindrances get in the way of knowing and seeing things as they are, and the desirable meditative states are ones where the hindrances are suppressed. That's still only a temporary freedom, but it paves the way for permanent eradication of your bondage.

Fig Tree

[siaophengyou]

Dear lppaefans,

What about the Perfections or Paramis ? One may not realize the Real Happiness without enough Parami.

metta,

siaophengyou

[Peter]

will mainly conducting mediation alone can leads one to enlightment?

care to share you views about this??

I have two groups of buddhist friends. One say no and one say yes.

I suspect that your friends who say "yes" think about it this way:

Meditation leads to insight. Insight leads to wanting to modifying the rest of one's life to be more in line with the rest of the Noble Eightfold Path. As the rest of one's life gets in order, meditation deepens which means insight deepens, which means one's conduct is modified even more. Some people think "I am not comfortable doing something just because the Buddha said so." This view is why some people say "yes" to your question.

I suspect those that say "no" think about it this way:

One can meditate all they want but in the rest of their life isn't in line with the Noble Eightfold Path then enlightenment will be impossible. Some people think "I can still lie and steal and kill and as long as I meditate I can get enlightened." This wrong view is why some people say "no" to your question.

[bodom]

I am not one way or the other on this topic but i have heard of a meditation master who claimed that "The breath can take you all the way to enlightenment." Im not sure who it was all i know is that i read it in Gil Fronsdals book The Issue at Hand. Maybe he was just saying that one meditation "technique" is enough. Who knows? I just thought it was a cool quote.

[genkaku]

I was thinking about this today, though from a slightly different angle. Please delete if it's too far off-topic:

Some -- perhaps a lot of -- people walk around imagining quietly, "I am not enlightened." And from there, it's a short step to wishing to be enlightened.

But the thought that crossed my mind was this: In order to know you are not enlightened, you would, of necessity, need to know what enlightenment was. And if you actually did know what enlightenment was, would it honestly be enlightenment?
Books and descriptions and angels on the head of a pin cannot adequately capture the meaning of enlightenment so ... how could anyone truthfully say they were unenlightened?

Brain teasers like this encourage me ... don't fret; just practice.

[bodom]

I was thinking about this today, though from a slightly different angle. Please delete if it's too far off-topic:

Some -- perhaps a lot of -- people walk around imagining quietly, "I am not enlightened." And from there, it's a short step to wishing to be enlightened.

But the thought that crossed my mind was this: In order to know you are not enlightened, you would, of necessity, need to know what enlightenment was. And if you actually did know what enlightenment was, would it honestly be enlightenment?
Books and descriptions and angels on the head of a pin cannot adequately capture the meaning of enlightenment so ... how could anyone truthfully say they were unenlightened?

Brain teasers like this encourage me ... don't fret; just practice.

The Buddha's description of Nibbana or Enlightenment:

"This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Nibbana."

— AN 3.32

I still have way too much attachment and suffering in my life to be Enlightened.

[Jechbi]

A few thoughts:

... the desirable meditative states are ones where the hindrances are suppressed. That's still only a temporary freedom, but it paves the way for permanent eradication of your bondage.

I'd amend this to say that some desireable meditate states might be thought to suppress hindrances. Other desireable states face the hindrances directly.

... i have heard of a meditation master who claimed that "The breath can take you all the way to enlightenment."

That's probably meant as an encouragement to keep on meditating, not as an encouragement to meditate at the exclusion of the rest of practice. You might not know the moment enlightenment comes. It doesn't always come in meditation, as the suttas illustrate. But lots of factors preceed it, so if it happens during meditation, there's some other stuff that happened earlier in life to help set the stage, like good sila for instance.

In order to know you are not enlightened, you would, of necessity, need to know what enlightenment was.

Does a blind man know what darkness is? How can a blind man know he's blind?

And if you actually did know what enlightenment was, would it honestly be enlightenment?

Why wouldn't it be?

[clw_uk]

Its a tough one to answer and i dont think there is a universal answer as it does come down to the individual. Certainely meditation is important but I wouldnt say its all there is. Sutta study is very helpful in increasing understanding of your practice.

[bodom]

Did the Buddhas original disciples study scripture? No, they just practiced and they reached the deathless. Find a good teacher.

[clw_uk]

The scriptures are the message of the buddha, his disciples did study his word and reflect on it.

If one cannot get to a teacher then the suttas are extremely helpful to the practise.

[bodom]

The scriptures are the message of the buddha, his disciples did study his word and reflect on it.

If one cannot get to a teacher then the suttas are extremely helpful to the practise.

They studied his word by putting into practice his word. Scriptural study is outward study. Practice is inward study.

"Do you know where it will end? Or will you just keep on studying like this? ...Or is there an end to it? ... That's okay but it's the external study, not the internal study. For the internal study you have to study these eyes, these ears, this nose, this tongue, this body and this mind. This is the real study. The study of books is just the external study, it's really hard to get it finished."

Ajahn Chah

See this thread: Practise vs suttra
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=503&view=unread#unread

Im not denying the importance of studying the Buddhas words. It is important but only if you use it as a guide and not take it to be the truth itself. I know this is cliche' but Its the finger not the moon.

[Jechbi]

Did the Buddhas original disciples study scripture? No, they just practiced and they reached the deathless. Find a good teacher.

The very first five just heard a few words from the Buddha, and bingo, enlightenment.

[bodom]

Did the Buddhas original disciples study scripture? No, they just practiced and they reached the deathless. Find a good teacher.

The very first five just heard a few words from the Buddha, and bingo, enlightenment.

Good point!

[clw_uk]

Some did attain nibbana with ease but the majority needed instruction and help along the way. I dont believe in just reading the suttas over and over i do believe in practice and wisdom comming from within, the right balance needs to be found between both.

[bodom]

Some did attain nibbana with ease but the majority needed instruction and help along the way. I dont believe in just reading the suttas over and over i do believe in practice and wisdom comming from within, the right balance needs to be found between both.

The Middle Way.