Dhammakid wrote:(But then it's also the other way around - our kamma affects our actions. You can't avoid the circle!)
Peter wrote:Kamma may affect our actions but it doesn't determine them.
Peter wrote:If you believe you can't avoid the circle then doesn't that mean you also necessarily believe there is no escape from samsara?
Dhammakid wrote:Hello All,
This has been mentioned in ES recently, but as I understand it, one has no choice in what level of Buddhahood they will eventually obtain. So, one cannot choose to become a Sammasambuddha, but rather can make the vow in front of a Sammasambuddha and only hope the Buddha has the prophecy ready for them. I read on ES there is nothing in the suttas supporting choice.
If this is the case, what is it determining the path of a Buddha? Is it their kamma that leads them to whatever specific Buddhahood they will obtain? If that's true, then it does suggest choice - because our actions determine our kamma, right? (But then it's also the other way around - our kamma affects our actions. You can't avoid the circle!)
Surely it isn't some secret random process.
Drolma wrote:I don't think it's the case that past karma determines our actions. Think of it this way: If you plant an apple seed in your yard and an apple tree grows there after a while, will you then have a choice to chop it down or nourish it? The tree is the result of the seed you planted before, then you have the choice of what to do with it. Eating the fruit would be your current action (karma).
So past karma [action] does not determine current karma [action]. Past karma can bear different kinds of fruit, and it's often mental affliction.
Peter wrote:Dhammakid wrote:what is the point of the vows and aspiration in the first place?
I'm not sure if this addresses your question... well it's a good sutta anyway.
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Dhammakid,
The way I see it, if the Buddha wanted us to strive for Buddhahood he would have said so. If the Buddha wanted us to strive for Arahantship he would have said so. That's all that matters to me - what he said. What do you believe he said?
Will wrote:I keep pushing this work by Ledi Sayadaw, so again, study the first chapter, after the listing of the paramis and there are the many factors of vows & qualities needed for Solitary buddhahood, Arahanthood and Full buddhahood.
http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Ledi/Uttam ... onsDefined
There is a "cart before the horse" element, I think, in the Kid's view. It is not that one has to make the bodhisatta vow/aspiration (or any other noble vow) for the first time in front of a Buddha for the vow to become effective. After eons of so aspiring and working to become that bodhisatta, kammic effect would naturally lead one to appear before some Buddha. That Buddha would simply give assurance that you will be successful. If you are not ready yet, you would not appear before a Buddha.
.Dhammakid: I've heard it said that one has no choice in the matter, because choice isn't found in the suttas in regard to this idea
Dhammakid wrote:Although, I'm a bit confused now...I guess the Buddha didn't teach us to strive for Buddhahood or Arahantship, right?
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,Dhammakid wrote:Although, I'm a bit confused now...I guess the Buddha didn't teach us to strive for Buddhahood or Arahantship, right?
In the Pali Canon he teaches to strive for Arahantship, not Buddhahood.
Will wrote:So Retro, when Ledi Sayadaw quotes some ancient Dhamma on Buddhahoood being a goal, he is using extra-canonical texts that have no authority - or just no authority with you?
Dhammakid wrote:I guess the Buddha didn't teach us to strive for ... Arahantship, right? Instead, he taught us to rid our suffering through the Path.
So what does this mean for the aspiration and vows? If the Buddha didn't teach it, how do we even know?
There's gotta be a reason why a certain individual becomes a Buddha.
Dhammakid wrote:It seems to be describing how one attains the perfections, and the level of perfections attained determines what level of Buddhahood one reaches. But like I mentioned before, I've heard it said that one has no choice in the matter, because choice isn't found in the suttas in regard to this idea. So what should we believe?
Will wrote:So when Ledi Sayadaw quotes some ancient Dhamma on Buddhahoood being a goal, he is using extra-canonical texts that have no authority - or just no authority with you?
retrofuturist wrote:Even if you believe the hagiographical accounts there's not much practical point in discussing it as an actual path of practice because of the condition that the vow must be made at the foot of the previous Buddha.
So, prudent, you should make merit, the fund that will follow you along. This is the fund that gives all they want to beings human, divine.
Whatever devas aspire to, all that is gained by this. A fine complexion, fine voice, a body well-built, well-formed, lordship, a following: all that is gained by this. Earthly kingship, supremacy, the bliss of an emperor, kingship over devas in the heavens: all that is gained by this. The attainment of the human state, any delight in heaven, the attainment of Nibbana: all that is gained by this. Excellent friends, appropriate application, mastery of clear knowing & release: all that is gained by this. Acumen, emancipation, the perfection of disciple-hood: all that is gained by this. Private Awakening, Buddha-hood: all that is gained by this.
So powerful is this, the accomplishment of merit. Thus the wise, the prudent, praise the fund of merit already made.