Aspiration, Vows and Choice

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Will,

So Retro, when Ledi Sayadaw quotes some ancient Dhamma on Buddhahoood being a goal, he is using extra-canonical texts that have no authority - or just no authority with you?

I understand there are texts within the wider Theravada tradition that talk about the Buddha's vow, his previous lives and so on, but I don't recall seeing anything in the Sutta Pitaka or Vinaya Pitaka about this Bodhisatta Vow, and they are the two sources that I consider most definitive. I certainly don't recall him extolling others to become Buddhas in any Theravadin text inside or outside of the Pali Canon, either.

Even if you believe the hagiographical accounts there's not much practical point in discussing it as an actual path of practice because of the condition that the vow must be made at the foot of the previous Buddha.

Unless that person were you or I, of course...

P.S. It wasn't me.

Metta,
Retro.

[kc2dpt]

I guess the Buddha didn't teach us to strive for ... Arahantship, right? Instead, he taught us to rid our suffering through the Path.

The one is synonymous with the other. Arahantship is nothing other than ending suffering.

So what does this mean for the aspiration and vows? If the Buddha didn't teach it, how do we even know?

The Buddha spoke of his own vow in front of a previous Buddha. But he did not ever teach "You should make a vow in front of me." In other words, he didn't teach "This is what you should do to become a Buddha". Rather he taught how he himself became a Buddha.

There's gotta be a reason why a certain individual becomes a Buddha.

Because that individual has cultivated the necessary qualities.

It seems to be describing how one attains the perfections, and the level of perfections attained determines what level of Buddhahood one reaches. But like I mentioned before, I've heard it said that one has no choice in the matter, because choice isn't found in the suttas in regard to this idea. So what should we believe?

These two are not contradictory. So believe them both. Can you choose which qualities you will have? If I could choose then I would have chosen to have patience long ago. But I can't choose to have patience. I can only strive to cultivate patience and if a number of factors are present, including but not limited to the desire to cultivate it, then patience will be cultivated.

[kc2dpt]

So when Ledi Sayadaw quotes some ancient Dhamma on Buddhahoood being a goal, he is using extra-canonical texts that have no authority - or just no authority with you?

He is quoting canonical texts. The paramis come from the Buddha describing his own path to Buddhahood. But as Retro said, the Buddha never exhorted his followers to take that path.

[Nicholas Weeks]

Even if you believe the hagiographical accounts there's not much practical point in discussing it as an actual path of practice because of the condition that the vow must be made at the foot of the previous Buddha.

Metta,
Retro.

As I wrote above:

There is a "cart before the horse" element, I think, in Retro's view. It is not that one has to make the bodhisatta vow/aspiration (or any other noble vow) for the first time in front of a Buddha for the vow to become effective. After eons of so aspiring and working to become that bodhisatta, kammic effect would naturally lead one to appear before some Buddha. That Buddha would simply give assurance that you will be successful. If you are not ready yet, you would not appear before a Buddha.

Since we cannot recall our past lives, why assume a Buddha (one previous to Gotama, maybe) did not assure us that our aspiration would be fulfilled?

As for Buddha "extolling" buddhahood - consider this excerpt from the Khuddakapatha #8:

So, prudent, you should make merit, the fund that will follow you along. This is the fund that gives all they want to beings human, divine.

Whatever devas aspire to, all that is gained by this. A fine complexion, fine voice, a body well-built, well-formed, lordship, a following: all that is gained by this. Earthly kingship, supremacy, the bliss of an emperor, kingship over devas in the heavens: all that is gained by this. The attainment of the human state, any delight in heaven, the attainment of Nibbana: all that is gained by this. Excellent friends, appropriate application, mastery of clear knowing & release: all that is gained by this. Acumen, emancipation, the perfection of disciple-hood: all that is gained by this. Private Awakening, Buddha-hood: all that is gained by this.
So powerful is this, the accomplishment of merit. Thus the wise, the prudent, praise the fund of merit already made.

My bold text. So Buddhahood is given as the highest result of gathering merit. If such a goal were beyond reaching, Buddha would not have listed it at all.

[Ceisiwr]

I believe that one should strive for arahantship.

The Buddha wanted people to reach nibbana here and now, not aeons from now.

The Buddha has pointed the way to the deathless, we should strive for it without delay.

[Nicholas Weeks]

I believe we should aspire to whatever we want to.

Here is Jeffrey Samuels from an old article:

In the Sampasaadaniiyasutta of the Diigha Nikaaya, for instance, Saariputta is professed to have said: "In the presence of the Exalted One have I heard him say and from him have received, that... in times gone by and in future times there have been, and will be other Supreme Buddhas equal to himself [i.e., Gotama] in the matter of Enlightenment." Thus, no longer is the term "bodhisattva" used solely in conjunction with Gotama, with other past buddhas, and with Maitreya; the bodhisattva-yaana is regarded as a possible, albeit difficult, path open to anyone who desires buddhahood.

Why say this if Arahants were all he wanted his Dhamma to produce?

Some more from Ven. Rahula: http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebdha126.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Ceisiwr]

The Buddha wanted all those he taught to realise nibbana for themselves in the here and now. He wanted us to get out of samsara now, not practice to spend more time in it, I dont believe that he taught that way.

[Ngawang Drolma.]

The Buddha wanted all those he taught to realise nibbana for themselves in the here and now. He wanted us to get out of samsara now, not practice to spend more time in it, I dont believe that he taught that way.

I am so fond of this reminder. Thank you

[Ceisiwr]

Your most welcome