Only Buddhists can attain full Jhana?

[Freawaru]

Hello Alex,

the practice of the jhanas lead to a rebirth on the deva worlds. No jhana practitioners without a Buddha no deva.

Hello all,
Non-Buddhist couldn't attain Jhana, because real jhana requires suppresion of 5 hindrances. Without belief in triple gem you cannot suppress the 5th hindrance. Without understanding of anatta, you cannot fully suppress the the first two hindrances.

Suppression of the hindrances does only require concentration, not an-atta.

Some might object saying Alara Kalama and Udakka Ramaputta has attained aruppas, and by inference Jhanas. However, It is not very certain that they have achieved the real Jhana states. More likely those teachers have achieved a diluted version of those states. If they did, why didn't it lead to Nibbana, while Jhana is the path to awakening (MN36, MN52)? If they taught "Jhana", then why did the Buddha remembered his Jhana as a child and not their Jhana states? Why was it only the Buddha that has awoken to Jhana (SN 2.7) and discovered the N8P that leads to them?

If you would reread the suttas in question the Buddha experienced the jhanas as taught by his teachers in a different way than when he enlightened. The important phrase is "the pleasant feeling did not enter and not remain". This is different from normal jhana. In normal jhana you experience the pleasant feeling not as detached, remote and alien. Directly before Enlightenment the Buddha experienced the jhanas while being in vipassana. This is why he thought he could teach how to Liberate to his former teachers, they were already almost there. They would just have switched to vipassana while in jhana.

In Dhp 372 there is a statement that "there is no Jhana without panna".

Panna does not depend on vipassana.

So how could non-Buddhist ascetics have Buddhist panna?

There is no Buddhist wisdom and non-Buddhist wisdom. Wisdom is always wisdom. The sword of Manjushri is always the same.

The middle path was discovered by the Buddha not them. The other two common paths was either self-mortification or indulgence in sense pleasures. None of these are particularly suitable for Jhana.

During jhana spiritual pleasant feeling arises. To be contemplated as described in vedananupassana.

If Jhana blinds "Mara", then it has to have panna. Furthermore if Brahmas are Jhana attainers (and are in a jhanic states) then why can they be possessed and
controlled by Mara (see MN49 sutta for example).

Blinding Mara is not the same as confusing Mara. Not to mention that jhana is impermanent. Even the devas die.

Note: It is not necessary according to the suttas to develop Jhana to be reborn in rupa/aruppa loka. See mn120.

Again the bhikkhu is endowed with faith, virtues, learning, benevolence and wisdom. The bhikkhu learns, that gods born in the sphere of consciousness ... re ... in the sphere of nothingness, re ... in the sphere of neither perception nor non perception have a long life span and enjoy much pleasantness. It occurs to him. O! I should be born with gods of the sphere of neither perception nor non perception with long life, much pleasantness. This is the path and method to be born there.http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... tti-e.html

In MN127 it says that one can have impure, with hindrances of sloth&torpor metta meditation and yet be reborn in rupa loka. Without overcoming ALL hindrances (including sloth & torpor, doubt, etc), one isn't technically even in full Buddhist First Jhana.

Erm, virtue and wisdom do base on samatha and the jhanas, so any bhikkhu endowed with them surely knows them. Overcoming the hindrances is something different than suppressing them.

Ending of Mental Fermentations depend on Jhana - AN 9.36

"Depend on"! Not "automatically lead to" or "are identical to".

The reason is that one has to deal with the spiritual pleasant feelings, aka jhana, deva realms.

Samadhi is proximate condition to "knowledge and vision of things as
they really are" - SN12.23

Samadhi leads to experience and identification of sati-sampajanna.

[Alex123]

Hello Alex,

the practice of the jhanas lead to a rebirth on the deva worlds. No jhana practitioners without a Buddha no deva.

Actually MN120 (Rebirth by aspiration) does not say that Jhana is required.

MN127 talks how one can be reborn in rupa loka even though one meditates with hindrances. Meditation hinder by hindrances is not full and complete Jhana.

http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... tti-e.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... dha-e.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


With metta,

Alex

[Kenshou]

Hi Kenshou,

I believe that Johannes Bronkhorst's, The Two Traditions of Meditation in Ancient India (http://my.unil.ch/serval/document/BIB_A88A22EFD384.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) covers this subject. His conclusion was that the 4 jhanas (or dhyanas as he calls them) appear to be an innovation by the historical Buddha, but that does not include the formless realms. I haven't read it for awhile, though.

The iddhis are gained by practice of the jhanas (all eight of them) and concentration practice with the elements as objects. As there were masters of the iddhis before the Buddha's Enlightment and independently of His teachings (some suttas mention the iddhis even in persons who were not students of the Buddha) I don't see how the first four jhanas could possibly be innovations of the Buddha.

If those abilities are attainable through concentration practices, I would speculate that they could be gotten through means other than just jhana of the sort we are referring to. I assume that there have been many different sorts of concentration practice throughout history. But you may know more about this than I do.

And I second Brizzy's request for evidence that the 4 jhanas as we know them are the Buddha's redefinition of a preexisting practice. Are there any pre-buddhist sources describing anything similar? Or are we pushing the limits of written history looking for such a thing. I don't have a particular attachment to either side, but it would be interesting to know. It wouldn't be that surprising to me if that's the case, but I don't know where to find such information.

[rowyourboat]

Hi Alex123,

Thanks for those quotes- interesting. There seems to be some shift- I wonder if he changes it according to the audience. I suspect that he does.
with metta

RYB

[Freawaru]

Hello Alex,

the practice of the jhanas lead to a rebirth on the deva worlds. No jhana practitioners without a Buddha no deva.

Actually MN120 (Rebirth by aspiration) does not say that Jhana is required.

MN127 talks how one can be reborn in rupa loka even though one meditates with hindrances. Meditation hinder by hindrances is not full and complete Jhana.

http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... tti-e.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... dha-e.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


With metta,

Alex

Hi Alex,

I am a bit confused. Do you think that one can be "endowed with faith, virtues, learning, benevolence and wisdom" without experiencing the jhanas? This sutta describes, IMO, very high level practice. One can choose one's rebirth by intention. I do not think anyone can achieve this without knowing the jhanas.

And if I understand it correctly the other describes reaching the jhanas via metta meditation. Nothing faster to reach equanimity (fourth jhana). And the other is about the release of mind grown great.

During the jhanas the hindrances are temporally suppressed but reappear when getting back into normal wake or dream or trance. Via vipassana on the other hand one can fully overcome them in the sense that one is not affected by them any more. One can be in vipassana while sloth and torpor are there (they won't enter and remain), one can even be in vipassana while in deep sleep, dying and death. The "hindrances" do not affect one in vipassana, this is the way they are overcome.

The jhanas are not called "sharpening the sword of Manjushri" without reason. Manjushri is the Wisdom Buddha, his sword is called "Discernment". Endowed with wisdom means one can wield this sword and it would not be sharp enough if one does not sharpen it by the jhanas.

[Freawaru]

Hi Kenshou,

I believe that Johannes Bronkhorst's, The Two Traditions of Meditation in Ancient India (http://my.unil.ch/serval/document/BIB_A88A22EFD384.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) covers this subject. His conclusion was that the 4 jhanas (or dhyanas as he calls them) appear to be an innovation by the historical Buddha, but that does not include the formless realms. I haven't read it for awhile, though.

The iddhis are gained by practice of the jhanas (all eight of them) and concentration practice with the elements as objects. As there were masters of the iddhis before the Buddha's Enlightment and independently of His teachings (some suttas mention the iddhis even in persons who were not students of the Buddha) I don't see how the first four jhanas could possibly be innovations of the Buddha.

If those abilities are attainable through concentration practices, I would speculate that they could be gotten through means other than just jhana of the sort we are referring to. I assume that there have been many different sorts of concentration practice throughout history. But you may know more about this than I do.

And I second Brizzy's request for evidence that the 4 jhanas as we know them are the Buddha's redefinition of a preexisting practice. Are there any pre-buddhist sources describing anything similar? Or are we pushing the limits of written history looking for such a thing. I don't have a particular attachment to either side, but it would be interesting to know. It wouldn't be that surprising to me if that's the case, but I don't know where to find such information.

Hi Kenshou,

the jhanas are not really that difficult to experience (now, mastery is a different kind of animal). They just base on concentrating on the right objects (and they arise kinda naturally when you are there). They are known in many cultures and religions today, I don't see any reason why it should have been different at the time of the Buddha.

Near the end of the conference, Michael Freeman gave a talk and led a discussion focusing on the similarities between the Jhanas and related contemplative practices in other major religious traditions. Michael is the director of the Southwest Sangha self-retreat center near Silver City, New Mexico, which hosts meditators from a wide variety of religious traditions who wish to go on silent self-retreat in this stunning setting in the remote highlands near the Gila Wilderness. He pointed out that although the Jhanas may be relatively new to the experience of most Western practitioners of Theravada meditation methods, Jhana-like states of mind are familiar territory (as are techniques for achieving them) to many of the retreatants of other spiritual traditions who practice at his center.
http://www.leighb.com/jhanarptleb.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here are good instruction how to enter jhana. Just try it for yourself. When you feel generally okay, got enough sleep and are ready for something new, sit somewhere nobody wants something from you and concentrate. You can also choose another object than breath (some people have problems with breath as object for various reasons). Once you have reached access concentration on your choosen object enter the first jhana by this:

First Jhana

Once access concentration has been established, you now induce the next factor of the first Jhana. This third factor is called piti and is variously translated as delight, euphoria, rapture and ecstasy. By shifting your attention from the meditation object to a pleasant sensation, particularly a pleasant physical sensation, and doing nothing more than not becoming distracted from the pleasant sensation, you will "automatically" enter the first Jhana. The experience is that the pleasant sensation grows in intensity until it explodes into an unmistakable state of ecstasy. This is piti, which is primarily a physical experience. Physical pleasure this intense is accompanied by emotional pleasure, and this emotional pleasure is sukha (joy, happiness), which is the fourth factor of the first Jhana.
http://www.leighb.com/jhana2a.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Of course, you might also be one of those who - after reaching access concentration - skip the first three and enter the fourth (equanimity). It is really not that difficult.

[Kenshou]

You've misunderstood me, Freawaru. I already have some familiarity with the first 4 jhanas. I think my post was fairly clear, I wasn't trying to say that jhanas are particularly difficult or anything like that. I was merely speculating about the nature of pre-Buddhist meditation, and asking for evidence of methods of meditation similar to the Buddhist jhana as we know it from pre-Buddhist sources, if they exist. It would be interesting to me.

[Freawaru]

You've misunderstood me, Freawaru. I already have some familiarity with the first 4 jhanas. I think my post was fairly clear, I wasn't trying to say that jhanas are particularly difficult or anything like that. I was merely speculating about the nature of pre-Buddhist meditation, and asking for evidence of methods of meditation similar to the Buddhist jhana as we know it from pre-Buddhist sources, if they exist. It would be interesting to me.

Hi Kenshou,

I apologise for misunderstanding you.

As you are familiar with the jhanas by own experience I suggest to read the pre-Buddhist scriptures yourself and compare to your own experience. Don't let yourself be confused by translations (sati=memory) and non-Buddhist definitions like "self/atman". I don't have time at the moment but this might sound familiar:

While contemplating the objects of the senses, a person develops attachment for them, and from such attachment lust develops, and from lust anger arises."
"From anger, complete delusion arises, and from delusion bewilderment of memory. When memory is bewildered, intelligence is lost, and when intelligence is lost one falls down again into the material pool."
"But a person free from all attachment and aversion and able to control his senses through regulative principles of freedom can obtain the complete mercy of the Lord."
http://www.bhagavad-gita.us/categories/ ... -2/?Page=4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also, the Tibetans don't see that much difference between their tradition of Buddhism and the Bön-tradition of pre-Buddhist time.

[meindzai]

What I think, but can't prove. Feel free to disagree...

I think the various factors of jhana have been accessable to meditators for a very long time. But I think the *categorization* of these various factors into various "levels" (first, second, third, fourth, or more if you look at Abhidhamma) is a Buddhist invention. I think when we read about different mental factors in Suttas and Abhidhamma, and about meditation in particular, we get the impression of the mind as being very neat and computer-like - with neatly delineated levels, factors, and so forth that come in and out in perfect squares like bits of data. When we practice meditation I think we quickly learn that it's more organic and messy than that. I believe the Jhanas (as categorizations) were the Buddha's way of "standardization." First Jhana is this...Second Jhana is that... etc.

I think that there are plenty of meditators that experience deep levels of concentration that can be any combination of factors that we would call jhanic, and they could be anywhere along the spectrum from access concentration through the formless states. The Buddha's meditation teachers, as we know, experienced two of these deep states, one being the base of neither perception nor non-perception and the other being the base of nothingness. But I don't know that they really would have referred to them in those same terms that the Buddha used when relaying the story of his encounter with them.

Furthermore the Buddha was the first to teach "right concentration," which IMO is the Jhanas in conjunction with and supported by the eightfold path. So while non-Buddhist meditators may experience the various jhanic factors they are not necessarily practicing right concentration. There are plenty of examples in the canon of monks with extraordinary concentrative power, even supernormal powers, doing unwholesome things, or getting attached to Jhana. So, I believe tha even though Rigth Concentration is defined in terms of the Jhanas, I don't believe that simply experiencing the Jhanas or their factors is right concentration.

So - Can non Buddhists experience Jhana - I believe yes
Can non Buddhists (Non-Buddhist being defined as somebody without right view, right thought, etc.) have right concentration? - I believe no.

-M

[imagemarie]

[tiltbillings]

Can non Buddhists (Non-Buddhist being defined as somebody without right view, right thought, etc.) have right concentration? - I believe no.

-M

Depends upon what you mean by "right concentration/samadhi." Samadhi is not exclusively Buddhist. Samadhi, in and of itself, does not guarantee vipassana. As far what Buddhist jhana is, the opinions seem to vary.

[meindzai]

Can non Buddhists (Non-Buddhist being defined as somebody without right view, right thought, etc.) have right concentration? - I believe no.

-M

Depends upon what you mean by "right concentration/samadhi." Samadhi is not exclusively Buddhist. Samadhi, in and of itself, does not guarantee vipassana. As far what Buddhist jhana is, the opinions seem to vary.

Which is why I qualified taht right concentration is "jhanas in conjunction with and supported by the eightfold path." Without the rest of the path it may be samadhi but not samma-samadhi.

-M

[rowyourboat]

If you do not know that the jhanas come in specific jumps/steps then it is unlikely you have experienced jhana.

[imagemarie]

If you do not know that the jhanas come in specific jumps/steps then it is unlikely you have experienced jhana.

That sounds very prescriptive. Is it Vissuddhimagga?
I'm not sure it's as simple as that, or necessarily the case. Sometimes boundaries become more blurred (in my experience fwiw) and not all jhana factors appear in tick list fashion.
I think Ajahn Brahm compares moving through the jhanas to accessing a room only by first entering a set of preceding rooms? Or something like that.
Perhaps it's also possible to use the lift, and not know of the existence of the other floors?

[Ben]

If you do not know that the jhanas come in specific jumps/steps then it is unlikely you have experienced jhana.

I agree.

kind regards

Ben