One Dharma? Joseph Goldstein's Perspective

[Sanghamitta]

I'm confused as to what all the confusion is about. "Liberating the mind"? What's not to understand? That's the goal. Liberation. Of the mind. Cetovimutti. Nibbana. A mind free from clinging is nothing more than a mind free from clinging. Clinging is a process. If your mind stops the process of clinging, then you have a mind free from clinging. Simple, n'est-ce pas? There is nothing more being posited.

If the engine of my car starts pinging, and I tweak the timing, and the pinging goes away, then my engine is free from pinging.

Well actually Tilt we only need to tweak the timing...apparently..sorry I am not simply being facetious but mechanical metaphors are even less clear to me than terms ( "mind ") borrowed from western psychology. I also have to face the possibility than I an simply a thicko.

[meindzai]

Are you ok with Abhidhammic distinctions? I understand mind (citta) as being synonymous with Vinnanakkhandha - The aggregate of consiousness.

http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ni ... bhi-02.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[quote=Nina Van Gorkom]
As regards citta, all cittas are one khandha: vinnanakkhandha. The Pali terms vinnana, mano and citta are three terms for the same reality: that which has the characteristic of knowing or experiencing something. When citta is classified as khandha the word vinnana is used. Thus, the five khandhas are grouped as one rupakkhandha, and four namakkhandha.
[/quote]

-M

[Sanghamitta]

So "liberation" of citta is actually realising the nature of citta and of its arising according to what I was taught. There is then no " liberated" mind. There is Insight.

[seanpdx]

I'm confused as to what all the confusion is about. "Liberating the mind"? What's not to understand? That's the goal. Liberation. Of the mind. Cetovimutti. Nibbana. A mind free from clinging is nothing more than a mind free from clinging. Clinging is a process. If your mind stops the process of clinging, then you have a mind free from clinging. Simple, n'est-ce pas? There is nothing more being posited.

If the engine of my car starts pinging, and I tweak the timing, and the pinging goes away, then my engine is free from pinging.

Well actually Tilt we only need to tweak the timing...apparently..sorry I am not simply being facetious but mechanical metaphors are even less clear to me than terms ( "mind ") borrowed from western psychology. I also have to face the possibility than I an simply a thicko.

I can use other metaphors if you prefer. =)

If I have a squeaky door, and I oil the hinge, then my door is free from squeaking. =)
If I have a web forum, and I delete all the posts, then my forum is free from posts. =)

Pick an interest/hobby, and I'll come up with a metaphor.

The point is that there's nothing particularly special about the phrase "mind free from clinging".
What is the mind? That part of you which thinks.

And I'm sean, not tilt.

[meindzai]

Not trying to be argumentative by throwing the book at you but:

"And he will never infer of me according to Dhamma: 'That Blessed One encompasses with his own mind the minds of other beings, other persons. He understands a mind affected by lust as affected by lust and a mind unaffected by lust as unaffected by lust; he understands a mind affected by hate as affected by hate and a mind unaffected by hate as unaffected by hate; he understands a mind affected by delusion as affected by delusion and a mind unaffected by delusion as unaffected by delusion; he understands a contracted mind as contracted and a distracted mind as distracted; he understands an exalted mind as exalted and an unexalted mind as unexalted; he understands a surpassed mind as surpassed and an unsurpassed mind as unsurpassed; he understands a concentrated mind as concentrated and an unconcentrated mind as unconcentrated; he understands a liberated mind as liberated and an unliberated mind as unliberated.'"

I just think it's perfectly ok to talk about ____ mind withing reifying it.

-M

[Sanghamitta]

I was talking to Tilt. And I am uninterested in metaphores.

[LauraJ]

I'm glad I left my clause for correction in there!

[seanpdx]

I was talking to Tilt. And I am uninterested in metaphores.

You should perhaps quote tilt when you speak to tilt.

[meindzai]

In all fairness to Sanghamitta, it can be noted that attempts to reify citta have been undertaken by so called Buddhists in the recent times and probably longer. If anybody is familiar with the imfamous Kenny Wheller (he had a site called attan.com that I don't think is up anymore) he made numerous attempts to equate citta with a kind of true self, through the use of poor translations of the pali canon, along with a lot of profanity. Looks like there was a thread about him here:

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2891" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Anyway, we're probably veering off topic.

-M

[Sanghamitta]

I was talking to Tilt. And I am uninterested in metaphores.

You should perhaps quote tilt when you speak to tilt.

You should perhaps use the forum your way, and I should perhaps use it my way.

[christopher:::]

I don't see a problem with the concept of "mind." It's true, teachers from different traditions use it differently. Just stick with the definition/view/understanding that works best for you.

Reading the Natural Mind- Ajahn Chah

I think Goldstein's pov is not that we should embrace the ideas/views of other traditions, but that it becomes easier to accept them (reduce our aversions) when we're aware of the commonalities of our traditions. The differences are there though, definitely.

It seems wise to stick with the path/methods that work for us.

[Dan74]

There is a lot to be said for deepening our practice through complete dedication and commitment. I don't know anything about Goldstein, but I suspect this is what he did before delving into other traditions.

Though many may disagree, I believe even minimal instruction like in Pure Land, if practiced sincerely and with 100% commitment, can result in deep insight and transformation.

On the other hand, deep teachings can do a great deal of harm. I recall Jung describing an archetypal motif of a sorcerer who was not ready for the magic (horrible things happen!). It can really be a case of too much too soon...

And also Trungpa warning about Spiritual Materialism - plucking all these delectable goodies from this smorgasbord of Buddhism(s) is just bound to give us an indigestion (or a big head covering a great deal of confusion).

I used to collect thick clever books (most of which I still haven't read) and think myself very clever for dabbling in all sorts of stuff. All the while I could even do my laundry on time...

On the other hand, if the motivation is sincere and there is an established direction and deep commitment, maybe it can work?

_/|\_

[christopher:::]

On the other hand, deep teachings can do a great deal of harm. I recall Jung describing an archetypal motif of a sorcerer who was not ready for the magic (horrible things happen!). It can really be a case of too much too soon...

And also Trungpa warning about Spiritual Materialism - plucking all these delectable goodies from this smorgasbord of Buddhism(s) is just bound to give us an indigestion (or a big head covering a great deal of confusion).

Hmmmm... kinda like....

phpBB .

The Future of Buddhism: Big Mind, Big Heart, and the Evolution of the Dharma by Genpo Roshi

In this teleseminar, Genpo Roshi shares with us the essence of Big Mind, Big Heart, an original approach to Zen practice that can enable even the novice student to have a direct and potentially life changing experience of their own true nature. He also explains why it is vital that we find new ways of understanding, teaching and practicing the timeless spiritual paths of the East.

I used to collect thick clever books (most of which I still haven't read) and think myself very clever for dabbling in all sorts of stuff. All the while I could even do my laundry on time...

On the other hand, if the motivation is sincere and there is an established direction and deep commitment, maybe it can work?

_/|\_

Sometimes going the wrong way and getting lost helps us to understand why that's the wrong way...