Vipassana

Discussion of Satipatthana bhavanā and Vipassana bhavana.

Re: Vipassana

Postby ashkenn » Sun Mar 21, 2010 7:50 am

((You allow it to grow by not shaving it. You feed the body with nutrients, part of which are responcible for beard to grow.

So you do set conditions for it to grow.))

When you do set, there is already an I that has arisen to set on it. When "I" arisen, there is miccha ditthi and that is aksuala. Understanding is not about I doing this or that, it is about understanding the nature of our present experience and understand it as anatta. So when you enter this forum and likes to know more about dhamma, that is condition by panna or faith of Buddha dhamma. that panna or faith will condition chanda and cetana and then you act accordingly.

If you think I must intentionally or purposely go to the web to learn dhamma, that is craving for panna. If you just thought of it and natrually without any other thoughts of intentionally or purposedly do it, then that is faith or panna that condition it and not cravings. It is very subtle difference but a difficult subtle difference to understand. No one can force dhamma because it is anatta. One could consider dhamma and considering dhamma is not book study. Considering of dhamma will condition you to act or will accordingly.


cheers
KC
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Re: Vipassana

Postby Brizzy » Sun Mar 21, 2010 8:55 am

ashkenn wrote:((You allow it to grow by not shaving it. You feed the body with nutrients, part of which are responcible for beard to grow.

So you do set conditions for it to grow.))

When you do set, there is already an I that has arisen to set on it. When "I" arisen, there is miccha ditthi and that is aksuala. Understanding is not about I doing this or that, it is about understanding the nature of our present experience and understand it as anatta. So when you enter this forum and likes to know more about dhamma, that is condition by panna or faith of Buddha dhamma. that panna or faith will condition chanda and cetana and then you act accordingly.

If you think I must intentionally or purposely go to the web to learn dhamma, that is craving for panna. If you just thought of it and natrually without any other thoughts of intentionally or purposedly do it, then that is faith or panna that condition it and not cravings. It is very subtle difference but a difficult subtle difference to understand. No one can force dhamma because it is anatta. One could consider dhamma and considering dhamma is not book study. Considering of dhamma will condition you to act or will accordingly.


cheers
KC


Hi

Your argument seems inwardly flawed. You say "One could consider Dhamma" how would one do this, if you had not had the desire to hear the Dhamma in the first place? Magic? You are almost implying that the decision to learn/acquire Dhamma/panna, has to be an occurence, outside of dependent origination. The following sutta shows that the Buddha was a straight forward teacher, who knew that craving for the ending of suffering was the spur for the Noble search.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.159.than.html

:smile:
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Re: Vipassana

Postby ashkenn » Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:26 pm

((Your argument seems inwardly flawed. You say "One could consider Dhamma" how would one do this, if you had not had the desire to hear the Dhamma in the first place? Magic? You are almost implying that the decision to learn/acquire Dhamma/panna, has to be an occurence, outside of dependent origination. The following sutta shows that the Buddha was a straight forward teacher, who knew that craving for the ending of suffering was the spur for the Noble search.))

KO: Dependent origination originates from ignorance and craving. What the sutta shows that this nun is infatuated with Ven Ananda and Ven Ananda explain to the nun on the danger of cravings. The nun at the end of the sutta confess her faults. Hence craving even to see another exalted person is unwholesome for the sake of knowing more dhamma.

Faith is on of the factor in conditon one to listen to the dhamma. Pse see MN 70
http://www.mahindarama.com/e-tipitaka/M ... /mn-70.htm

<<Bhikkhus, I do not convince of perfection right at the beginning. It is a gradual ascent, with gradual training, action, and follow up. Bhikkhus, how does the conviction of perfection come about with gradual training, action, and follow up? Bhikkhus, someone approaches when faith is born. Then he associates. Associating lends ear. Listening bears the Teaching. Bearing the Teaching examines the meanings. Examining the meanings some conviction arises. Pleased with that conviction an interest arises for the Teaching. With interest there is effort. With that effort there is weighing. Weighing realizes the highest truth with the body, and wisely penetrates it.

Bhikkhus, without faith, there is no approach. Without the approach there is no association. Without association there is no lending ear. Without lending ear there is no listening, Without listening, the Teaching is not borne in the mind. Without bearing the Teaching there is no examining of the meanings. Without an examination, there is no conviction. Without a conviction, there is no interest. Without an interest, there is no effort. Without effort there is no discrimination. Without discrimination there is no weighing. Without weighing, there is no confrontation. Those gone astray are on the wrong track. Bhikkhus, the foolish, not interested in this dispensation of Teaching, how far have they strayed?. >>

If you like to discuss the sutta you quoted, I am most delighted. If you wish to discuss Dependent Origination, I am also be very glad

Cheers
KC (aka Ken O)
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Re: Vipassana

Postby Brizzy » Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:59 pm

ashkenn wrote:((Your argument seems inwardly flawed. You say "One could consider Dhamma" how would one do this, if you had not had the desire to hear the Dhamma in the first place? Magic? You are almost implying that the decision to learn/acquire Dhamma/panna, has to be an occurence, outside of dependent origination. The following sutta shows that the Buddha was a straight forward teacher, who knew that craving for the ending of suffering was the spur for the Noble search.))

KO: Dependent origination originates from ignorance and craving. What the sutta shows that this nun is infatuated with Ven Ananda and Ven Ananda explain to the nun on the danger of cravings. The nun at the end of the sutta confess her faults. Hence craving even to see another exalted person is unwholesome for the sake of knowing more dhamma.


Craving in the sense of sexual desire - the bridge is to be abandoned - the nun obviously had designs on Ananda. However craving in this sense :-"'This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? There is the case, sister, where a monk hears, 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now.' The thought occurs to him, 'I hope that I, too, will — through the ending of the fermentations — enter & remain in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for myself in the here & now.' Then, at a later time, he abandons craving, having relied on craving. 'This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said."
is to be relied upon.


Faith is on of the factor in conditon one to listen to the dhamma. Pse see MN 70
http://www.mahindarama.com/e-tipitaka/M ... /mn-70.htm

<<Bhikkhus, I do not convince of perfection right at the beginning. It is a gradual ascent, with gradual training, action, and follow up. Bhikkhus, how does the conviction of perfection come about with gradual training, action, and follow up? Bhikkhus, someone approaches when faith is born. Then he associates. Associating lends ear. Listening bears the Teaching. Bearing the Teaching examines the meanings. Examining the meanings some conviction arises. Pleased with that conviction an interest arises for the Teaching. With interest there is effort. With that effort there is weighing. Weighing realizes the highest truth with the body, and wisely penetrates it.

Bhikkhus, without faith, there is no approach. Without the approach there is no association. Without association there is no lending ear. Without lending ear there is no listening, Without listening, the Teaching is not borne in the mind. Without bearing the Teaching there is no examining of the meanings. Without an examination, there is no conviction. Without a conviction, there is no interest. Without an interest, there is no effort. Without effort there is no discrimination. Without discrimination there is no weighing. Without weighing, there is no confrontation. Those gone astray are on the wrong track. Bhikkhus, the foolish, not interested in this dispensation of Teaching, how far have they strayed?. >>

If you like to discuss the sutta you quoted, I am most delighted. If you wish to discuss Dependent Origination, I am also be very glad


Cheers
KC (aka Ken O)



How would you define "conidering the Dhamma"?

Even before faith arises, the disciple has had to have had a report of the teacher or teaching - he develops - confidence - he visits etc. It is a beginning of the path, that is still rooted within dependent origination and hopefully will take one through transcendental origination.

:smile:
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Re: Vipassana

Postby ashkenn » Sun Mar 21, 2010 2:00 pm

((How would you define "conidering the Dhamma"?

Even before faith arises, the disciple has had to have had a report of the teacher or teaching - he develops - confidence - he visits etc. It is a beginning of the path, that is still rooted within dependent origination and hopefully will take one through transcendental origination.))

KO: considering dhamma is to understand dhamma when it arise is not self at the present moment. Now we cannot know the first arisen of faith or panna, just like we do not know the first arisen of ignorance.

Faith could arise due to a few reasons, a chance to read dhamma books. Others eg; one question life and search for an answer, and then meet dhamma or a wise person who explain dhamma etc. Thereafter, when one read, investigate one's read and have confidence of the text, faith arises.

One will be rooted in samasara as long as craving is not extinguished, ignorance is not eradicated. the 4NT shows also that craving is the cause of the mass of suffering just like in D.O. That does not mean one cannot esapce from it. The escape is the 8NP in the 4NT. D.O. shows that it is just conditions, there is no self involved in the whole process. Considering dhamma is to develop right view of that dhamma arise and fall due to conditions, there is no self in dhamma or in D.O

Cheers
Ken O
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Re: Vipassana

Postby Alex123 » Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:35 pm

ashkenn wrote:((You allow it to grow by not shaving it. You feed the body with nutrients, part of which are responcible for beard to grow.

So you do set conditions for it to grow.))

When you do set, there is already an I that has arisen to set on it. When "I" arisen, there is miccha ditthi and that is aksuala.


The same can be said about studying and considering the Dhamma.

Understanding is not about I doing this or that, it is about understanding the nature of our present experience and understand it as anatta.


This is what a proper meditation should be for. To learn about anatta and presently arisen namarupa.

If you just thought of it and natrually without any other thoughts of intentionally or purposedly do it, then that is faith or panna that condition it and not cravings.


This is how meditation should be done. Without any false idea of control or expectations.



With metta,

Alex
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Re: Vipassana

Postby BlackBird » Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:46 pm

I guess my questions Brizzy, are: Have you ever practiced Vipassana under an experienced teacher before? What are your grounds to challenge the efficacy of the Vissudhimagga and Goenka based systems?

metta
Jack
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Re: Vipassana

Postby Brizzy » Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:52 am

BlackBird wrote:I guess my questions Brizzy, are: Have you ever practiced Vipassana under an experienced teacher before? What are your grounds to challenge the efficacy of the Vissudhimagga and Goenka based systems?

metta
Jack


Yes & my grounds for challenging the Vissudhimagga and Goenka based systems are that I am a follower of the Buddha not the Vissudhimagga and Goenka based systems. If the Buddha taught these systems, I cant find them.
I believe the danger in such systems are that they work! Strange & powerful effects can & do arise, but the same thing could be said following kundalini practice(so I've heard). The question should be are these experiences in line with the Dhamma? some are - but a lot are not, and if you approach any system with wrong view, things are going to go wrong. The similarities between a Goenka teaching and the teachings of the niganthas(jains) is so marked, that it defies belief. Whatever anybody may say to the contrary, Goenka believes that our kammas are eradicated, by their arising and passing & staying "equanimous" with the process. If people look carefully at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.101.than.html they will see that this is nonsense. The introduction by Thanissaro Bhikkhu is also worth a read.
At this point it is also worth mentioning that I considered Goenka as my teacher for many years. Whilst I have shied away from his interpretation of the Dhamma, I still have respect for him in some ways. On his courses, which are freely given, I was able to understand that not all dhamma teachings are Dhamma.
As for the Vissudhimagga, well if Goenka is jain the Vissudhimagga seems a little Hindu. If its not spelt out in the four Nikayas - why bother?

:smile:

Please read the above sutta with an open heart :anjali:

Compare it to the Q & A in this :- http://www.udaya.dhamma.org/ebook/Meditation_Now-Inner_Peace_through_Inner_Wisdom/nl9801.html
:smile:
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Re: Vipassana

Postby ashkenn » Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:43 pm

<<The same can be said about studying and considering the Dhamma>>
Definitely when we study and consider dhamma, there is a action or do. We are not denying the do part. We are saying we cannot go and purposedly control cittas. The nature of the citta will continue to rise and fall, because dhamma is anatta. Just like we cannot wish not to grow old, we will still grow old.

<<This is what a proper meditation should be for. To learn about anatta and presently arisen namarupa.>>
What is proper meditation? Are you comtemplating the rise and fall or fixing on an object. We have to clear about it. Also we do not need meditation for understanding of nama and rupa, it could be understood even when you type your email. Meditation could be translated from the word bhavana or jhanas or samadhi. Each of this word means differently in Pali and application is also different.


<<This is how meditation should be done. Without any false idea of control or expectations.>>
That is correct but do we know what is not control or expectations. Your earlier email is not consistent with this email ((So you do set conditions for it to grow.)) I may interpret wrongly, you may like to tell me more? If we do not have clear comprehension of dhamma, we cannot do meditation. The danger is that we may unconsciousnessly taking pleasant feeling or indifference feeling that arise with meditation as meditation.

Cheers
Ken O
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Re: Vipassana

Postby Alex123 » Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:50 pm

ashkenn wrote:What is proper meditation? Are you comtemplating the rise and fall or fixing on an object.


Proper meditation is non-conceptually being aware of presently changing flow of namarupa. Even if one does anapanasati, it is still done with the awareness of changing namarupa. With more and more close observation of changing namarupa, one is able to see it more clearer and in greater detail. The direct experiential knowledge gained, little by little, will change the natural behaviour of the mind (make it less distracted, etc).

Does that answer your questions?

Best wishes,

Alex
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Re: Vipassana

Postby jcsuperstar » Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:30 pm

i would suggest the anapanasati sutta as the answer to the question of what proper meditation is.
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the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Re: Vipassana

Postby Kenshou » Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:09 pm

jcsuperstar wrote:i would suggest the anapanasati sutta as the answer to the question of what proper meditation is.


I'm inclined to agree with this. The anapanasati sutta combined with the satipatthana sutta is pretty much the best practical guidance I can think of. Though different interpretations of those are all over the map, I guess.
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Re: Vipassana

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:12 pm

Greetings Kenshou,

Kenshou wrote:The anapanasati sutta combined with the satipatthana sutta is pretty much the best practical guidance I can think of.


:thumbsup:

Kenshou wrote:Though different interpretations of those are all over the map, I guess.

Which may only be a problem if someone feels the need to be straitjacketed into a narrow and prescriptive technique.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Vipassana

Postby Brizzy » Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:59 am

Brizzy wrote:Hi

Are the vipassana techniques, taught through the Mahasi & Goenka centres, relatively new inventions based on commentarial works? .......................
............................... That is why I ask if these techniques are relatively new.

Metta :smile:


Hi

:focus:

BTW ......No Mahayana sutras allowed to "prove" lineage! :tongue:

:smile:
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Re: Vipassana

Postby Ben » Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:25 am

Brizzy wrote:
Brizzy wrote:Hi

Are the vipassana techniques, taught through the Mahasi & Goenka centres, relatively new inventions based on commentarial works? .......................
............................... That is why I ask if these techniques are relatively new.

Metta :smile:


Hi

:focus:

BTW ......No Mahayana sutras allowed to "prove" lineage! :tongue:

:smile:


I'm sorry, but who made you a moderator?
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Re: Vipassana

Postby bodom » Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:37 am

Kenshou wrote:
jcsuperstar wrote:i would suggest the anapanasati sutta as the answer to the question of what proper meditation is.


I'm inclined to agree with this. The anapanasati sutta combined with the satipatthana sutta is pretty much the best practical guidance I can think of.


I would include the Bahiya sutta along with these two as well.


:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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Re: Vipassana

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:45 am

Greetings,

bodom wrote:I would include the Bahiya sutta along with these two as well.


:thumbsup:

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Vipassana

Postby Brizzy » Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:46 am

Ben wrote:
Brizzy wrote:
Brizzy wrote:Hi

Are the vipassana techniques, taught through the Mahasi & Goenka centres, relatively new inventions based on commentarial works? .......................
............................... That is why I ask if these techniques are relatively new.

Metta :smile:


Hi

:focus:

BTW ......No Mahayana sutras allowed to "prove" lineage! :tongue:

:smile:




I'm sorry, but who made you a moderator?


Peace

:smile:
Brizzy
 

Re: Vipassana

Postby jcsuperstar » Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:19 am

bodom wrote:
Kenshou wrote:
jcsuperstar wrote:i would suggest the anapanasati sutta as the answer to the question of what proper meditation is.


I'm inclined to agree with this. The anapanasati sutta combined with the satipatthana sutta is pretty much the best practical guidance I can think of.


I would include the Bahiya sutta along with these two as well.


:anjali:

i was going to add this but thought it wasn't enough about formal meditation. i do use it when talking to soto-zen buddhist on how to understand shikantaza from the buddha's perspective though
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Re: Vipassana

Postby ashkenn » Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:28 pm

<<Proper meditation is non-conceptually being aware of presently changing flow of namarupa. Even if one does anapanasati, it is still done with the awareness of changing namarupa. With more and more close observation of changing namarupa, one is able to see it more clearer and in greater detail. The direct experiential knowledge gained, little by little, will change the natural behaviour of the mind (make it less distracted, etc).

Does that answer your questions?>>

KO: No, you are mixing up the practise. The preliminary stage is fixing on the breath, breath in long and short. It is always said that after fixing on the breath, one attains jhanas. Then the jhanas is a basis for insight which is the understanding of nama and rupa. You think you are ready to do breathing meditation?


Cheers
Ken O
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