Vipassana

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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Alex123
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Re: Vipassana

Post by Alex123 »

Hello Brizzy,

While the Buddha doesn't to my knowledge say "This is vipassana practice..." , He does seem often to indirectly refer to insight practice .

SN35.165 (10) Abandoning Wrong View
Then a certain bhikkhu approached the Blessed One … and said to him: “Venerable sir, how should one know, how should one see, for wrong view to be abandoned?

Bhikkhu, when one knows and sees the eye as impermanent, wrong view is abandoned. When one knows and sees forms as impermanent … eye-consciousness as impermanent … eye-contact as impermanent … whatever feeling arises with mind-contact as condition … as impermanent, wrong view is abandoned. It is when one knows and sees thus that wrong view is abandoned."

Same for abandoning of self view SN35.166-167

Abandoning of wrong views doesn't require the "a whole bunch of books" approach. A thorough anicca meditation can do that.
Ignorance needs to be abandoned. And how? By knowing and seeing faculties as impermanent
"Ignorance, bhikkhu, is that one thing through the abandoning of which ignorance is abandoned by a bhikkhu and true knowledge arises.

Bhikkhu, when a bhikkhu knows and sees the eye as impermanent, ignorance is abandoned by him and true knowledge arises. When he knows and sees forms as impermanent. When he knows and sees as impermanent whatever feeling arises with mind-contact as condition … ignorance is abandoned by him and true knowledge arises." - SN35.79(6) BB translation.

"If a monk, while keeping track of arising & passing away with regard to the eye-faculty, becomes disenchanted with the eye-faculty; if, while keeping track of arising & passing away with regard to the ear-faculty... the nose-faculty... the tongue-faculty... the body faculty... the intellect-faculty, he becomes disenchanted with the intellect-faculty; and, disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate; through dispassion, he is fully released; with full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released'; he discerns that 'Birth is depleted, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world,' it is to this extent that one is consummate in faculties."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I am sure that Mahasi or Goenka like practice may heve been implied above. There are many passages in SN that could be interpreted as "labeling" of some sort.


"when a bhikkhu knows and sees the eye as impermanent..." , here it may be implied that one labels the eye [and others] as "as impermanent". And satipatthana sutta may imply labeling...

Just few thoughts...

IMHO.


With metta,

Alex
Brizzy

Re: Vipassana

Post by Brizzy »

Alex123 wrote:Hello Brizzy,

While the Buddha doesn't to my knowledge say "This is vipassana practice..." , He does seem often to indirectly refer to insight practice .

SN35.165 (10) Abandoning Wrong View
Then a certain bhikkhu approached the Blessed One … and said to him: “Venerable sir, how should one know, how should one see, for wrong view to be abandoned?

Bhikkhu, when one knows and sees the eye as impermanent, wrong view is abandoned. When one knows and sees forms as impermanent … eye-consciousness as impermanent … eye-contact as impermanent … whatever feeling arises with mind-contact as condition … as impermanent, wrong view is abandoned. It is when one knows and sees thus that wrong view is abandoned."

Same for abandoning of self view SN35.166-167

Abandoning of wrong views doesn't require the "a whole bunch of books" approach. A thorough anicca meditation can do that.
Ignorance needs to be abandoned. And how? By knowing and seeing faculties as impermanent
"Ignorance, bhikkhu, is that one thing through the abandoning of which ignorance is abandoned by a bhikkhu and true knowledge arises.

Bhikkhu, when a bhikkhu knows and sees the eye as impermanent, ignorance is abandoned by him and true knowledge arises. When he knows and sees forms as impermanent. When he knows and sees as impermanent whatever feeling arises with mind-contact as condition … ignorance is abandoned by him and true knowledge arises." - SN35.79(6) BB translation.

"If a monk, while keeping track of arising & passing away with regard to the eye-faculty, becomes disenchanted with the eye-faculty; if, while keeping track of arising & passing away with regard to the ear-faculty... the nose-faculty... the tongue-faculty... the body faculty... the intellect-faculty, he becomes disenchanted with the intellect-faculty; and, disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate; through dispassion, he is fully released; with full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released'; he discerns that 'Birth is depleted, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world,' it is to this extent that one is consummate in faculties."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I am sure that Mahasi or Goenka like practice may heve been implied above. There are many passages in SN that could be interpreted as "labeling" of some sort.


"when a bhikkhu knows and sees the eye as impermanent..." , here it may be implied that one labels the eye [and others] as "as impermanent". And satipatthana sutta may imply labeling...

Just few thoughts...

IMHO.


With metta,

Alex
Hi

If one was to recollect that they were once a child - and that they will surely die - and all the change in between. Is this not knowing and seeing anicca of the senses/aggregates etc .- its rising/passing away and its subject to change? Investigating the conditions for their arising/passing, is the second of the enlightenment factors. No"special" practice is indicated. If one one is following these special vipassana practices, how is one actually knowing & seeing the eye as impermanent? If one is labeling a certain thing, how is this being aware of its origin, change and cessation?
The buddha gave a wide range of recollections(sati) that could be used regarding the body e.g. parts of the body, cemetery, food etc. A large part of the myriad of suttas the Buddha taught are all ways & means for the arising of the enlightenment factors. Even the "perception" of the not self, is a practice to be thought through/recollected/perceived. The perception of Dukkha, does not mean one has to generate pain, before one can know & see the characteristic of Dukkha.
I know I am rambling, but it is hard sometimes to express what one actually means. That is why the four Nikayas are so precious, the Buddha taught them so clearly.:-

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
http://www.cambodianbuddhist.org/englis ... 5-176.html

The first & last suttas are two of the very few occassions that the Buddha got specific about a laypersons formal meditation.

:smile:
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Virgo
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Re: Vipassana

Post by Virgo »

When your beard grows, do you tell each hair to grow?
Brizzy

Re: Vipassana

Post by Brizzy »

Virgo wrote:When your beard grows, do you tell each hair to grow?
? :thinking:

:smile:
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BlackBird
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Re: Vipassana

Post by BlackBird »

10.8 "There are here, O monks, some foolish men who study the Teaching; having studied it, they do not wisely examine the purpose of those teachings. To those who do not wisely examine the purpose, these teachings will not yield insight. They study the Teaching only to use it for criticizing or for refuting others in disputation. They do not experience the (true) purpose for which they (ought to) study the Teaching. To them these teachings wrongly grasped, will bring harm and suffering for a long time. And why? Because of their wrong grasp of the teachings.

"Suppose, monks, a man wants a snake, looks for a snake, goes in search of a snake. He then sees a large snake, and when he is grasping its body or its tail, the snake turns back on him and bites his hand or arm or some other limb of his. And because of that he suffers death or deadly pain. And why? Because of his wrong grasp of the snake.

"Similarly, O monks, there are here some foolish men who study the Teaching; having studied it, they do not wisely examine the purpose of those teachings. To those who do not wisely examine the purpose, these teachings will not yield insight. They study the Teaching only to use it for criticizing or for refuting others in disputation. They do not experience the (true) purpose for which they (ought to) study the Teaching. To them these teachings wrongly grasped, will bring harm and suffering for a long time. And why? Because of their wrong grasp of the teachings.
- MN 22

:heart:
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
Brizzy

Re: Vipassana

Post by Brizzy »

BlackBird wrote:
10.8 "There are here, O monks, some foolish men who study the Teaching; having studied it, they do not wisely examine the purpose of those teachings. To those who do not wisely examine the purpose, these teachings will not yield insight. They study the Teaching only to use it for criticizing or for refuting others in disputation. They do not experience the (true) purpose for which they (ought to) study the Teaching. To them these teachings wrongly grasped, will bring harm and suffering for a long time. And why? Because of their wrong grasp of the teachings.

"Suppose, monks, a man wants a snake, looks for a snake, goes in search of a snake. He then sees a large snake, and when he is grasping its body or its tail, the snake turns back on him and bites his hand or arm or some other limb of his. And because of that he suffers death or deadly pain. And why? Because of his wrong grasp of the snake.

"Similarly, O monks, there are here some foolish men who study the Teaching; having studied it, they do not wisely examine the purpose of those teachings. To those who do not wisely examine the purpose, these teachings will not yield insight. They study the Teaching only to use it for criticizing or for refuting others in disputation. They do not experience the (true) purpose for which they (ought to) study the Teaching. To them these teachings wrongly grasped, will bring harm and suffering for a long time. And why? Because of their wrong grasp of the teachings.
- MN 22

:heart:

Well said :clap:

It might have also included, how people will give prominence to teachings that are not from the Buddha.


:smile:
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BlackBird
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Re: Vipassana

Post by BlackBird »

Brizzy wrote: It might have also included...
:|
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
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Alex123
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Re: Vipassana

Post by Alex123 »

Virgo wrote:When your beard grows, do you tell each hair to grow?
You allow it to grow by not shaving it. You feed the body with nutrients, part of which are responcible for beard to grow.

So you do set conditions for it to grow.
rowyourboat
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Re: Vipassana

Post by rowyourboat »

AN 4.94 PTS: A ii 93
Samadhi Sutta: Concentration (Tranquillity and Insight)
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 1998–2010
"Monks, these four types of individuals are to be found existing in the world. Which four?

"There is the case of the individual who has attained internal tranquillity of awareness (samatha), but not insight into phenomena through heightened discernment (vipassana). Then there is the case of the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquillity of awareness. Then there is the case of the individual who has attained neither internal tranquillity of awareness nor insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. And then there is the case of the individual who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment.

"The individual who has attained internal tranquillity of awareness, but not insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, should approach an individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment and ask him: 'How should fabrications be regarded? How should they be investigated? How should they be seen with insight?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'Fabrications should be regarded in this way. Fabrications should be investigated in this way. Fabrications should be seen in this way with insight.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment.

"As for the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquillity of awareness, he should approach an individual who has attained internal tranquillity of awareness... and ask him, 'How should the mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should it be unified? How should it be concentrated?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'The mind should be steadied in this way. The mind should be made to settle down in this way. The mind should be unified in this way. The mind should be concentrated in this way.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment.

"As for the individual who has attained neither internal tranquillity of awareness nor insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, he should approach an individual who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment... and ask him, 'How should the mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should it be unified? How should it be concentrated? How should fabrications be regarded? How should they be investigated? How should they be seen with insight?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'The mind should be steadied in this way. The mind should be made to settle down in this way. The mind should be unified in this way. The mind should be concentrated in this way. Fabrications should be regarded in this way. Fabrications should be investigated in this way. Fabrications should be seen in this way with insight.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment.

"As for the individual who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, his duty is to make an effort in establishing ('tuning') those very same skillful qualities to a higher degree for the ending of the (mental) fermentations.

"These are four types of individuals to be found existing in the world."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
Brizzy

Re: Vipassana

Post by Brizzy »

rowyourboat wrote:AN 4.94 PTS: A ii 93
Samadhi Sutta: Concentration (Tranquillity and Insight)
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 1998–2010
"Monks, these four types of individuals are to be found existing in the world. Which four?......

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I am not disputing the four types of individuals to be found in the world.....merely the esoteric/tantric practices that have developed. If the Buddha says to sati (recollect) on certain things (foundations), I dont know why people have to invent elaborate techniques, when the obvious is staring them in the face. The Buddha never felt it necessary to elaborate such practices, but a lot of people it appears to me, must see the Buddha as an inadequate teacher. My eyes roll to heaven when I hear/read people, repeatedly saying that such techniques were widely known at the time or that such techniques were handed down, through the ages! The Buddha was the supreme Teacher, and everything and anything that we need to know to escape sufferring, has been taught by the Buddha. To suggest that the Buddha left anything out, is to pander to modern or post sutta/vinaya thinking. The whole of the Theravadin sangha could say one thing - if it disagreed with the suttas, I know which teaching I would follow. People object "that is your understanding of the suttas" but in all honesty the majority of suttas are very straightforward. It is only the commentaries & later developments, that try to make them obscure.

As regards a lay persons practice (which I assume the majority here are), the Buddha rarely touched on specific times put aside for meditation, as I recollect one of the few times he did was here.....

http://www.cambodianbuddhist.org/englis ... 5-176.html......Jhana?

And as a follow up to this, here.......

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html........Vipassana?

You could be a devil and combine the two. :anjali:


:smile:
ashkenn
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Re: Vipassana

Post by ashkenn »

((You allow it to grow by not shaving it. You feed the body with nutrients, part of which are responcible for beard to grow.

So you do set conditions for it to grow.))

When you do set, there is already an I that has arisen to set on it. When "I" arisen, there is miccha ditthi and that is aksuala. Understanding is not about I doing this or that, it is about understanding the nature of our present experience and understand it as anatta. So when you enter this forum and likes to know more about dhamma, that is condition by panna or faith of Buddha dhamma. that panna or faith will condition chanda and cetana and then you act accordingly.

If you think I must intentionally or purposely go to the web to learn dhamma, that is craving for panna. If you just thought of it and natrually without any other thoughts of intentionally or purposedly do it, then that is faith or panna that condition it and not cravings. It is very subtle difference but a difficult subtle difference to understand. No one can force dhamma because it is anatta. One could consider dhamma and considering dhamma is not book study. Considering of dhamma will condition you to act or will accordingly.


cheers
KC
Brizzy

Re: Vipassana

Post by Brizzy »

ashkenn wrote:((You allow it to grow by not shaving it. You feed the body with nutrients, part of which are responcible for beard to grow.

So you do set conditions for it to grow.))

When you do set, there is already an I that has arisen to set on it. When "I" arisen, there is miccha ditthi and that is aksuala. Understanding is not about I doing this or that, it is about understanding the nature of our present experience and understand it as anatta. So when you enter this forum and likes to know more about dhamma, that is condition by panna or faith of Buddha dhamma. that panna or faith will condition chanda and cetana and then you act accordingly.

If you think I must intentionally or purposely go to the web to learn dhamma, that is craving for panna. If you just thought of it and natrually without any other thoughts of intentionally or purposedly do it, then that is faith or panna that condition it and not cravings. It is very subtle difference but a difficult subtle difference to understand. No one can force dhamma because it is anatta. One could consider dhamma and considering dhamma is not book study. Considering of dhamma will condition you to act or will accordingly.


cheers
KC
Hi

Your argument seems inwardly flawed. You say "One could consider Dhamma" how would one do this, if you had not had the desire to hear the Dhamma in the first place? Magic? You are almost implying that the decision to learn/acquire Dhamma/panna, has to be an occurence, outside of dependent origination. The following sutta shows that the Buddha was a straight forward teacher, who knew that craving for the ending of suffering was the spur for the Noble search.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

:smile:
ashkenn
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Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:09 am

Re: Vipassana

Post by ashkenn »

((Your argument seems inwardly flawed. You say "One could consider Dhamma" how would one do this, if you had not had the desire to hear the Dhamma in the first place? Magic? You are almost implying that the decision to learn/acquire Dhamma/panna, has to be an occurence, outside of dependent origination. The following sutta shows that the Buddha was a straight forward teacher, who knew that craving for the ending of suffering was the spur for the Noble search.))

KO: Dependent origination originates from ignorance and craving. What the sutta shows that this nun is infatuated with Ven Ananda and Ven Ananda explain to the nun on the danger of cravings. The nun at the end of the sutta confess her faults. Hence craving even to see another exalted person is unwholesome for the sake of knowing more dhamma.

Faith is on of the factor in conditon one to listen to the dhamma. Pse see MN 70
http://www.mahindarama.com/e-tipitaka/M ... /mn-70.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

<<Bhikkhus, I do not convince of perfection right at the beginning. It is a gradual ascent, with gradual training, action, and follow up. Bhikkhus, how does the conviction of perfection come about with gradual training, action, and follow up? Bhikkhus, someone approaches when faith is born. Then he associates. Associating lends ear. Listening bears the Teaching. Bearing the Teaching examines the meanings. Examining the meanings some conviction arises. Pleased with that conviction an interest arises for the Teaching. With interest there is effort. With that effort there is weighing. Weighing realizes the highest truth with the body, and wisely penetrates it.

Bhikkhus, without faith, there is no approach. Without the approach there is no association. Without association there is no lending ear. Without lending ear there is no listening, Without listening, the Teaching is not borne in the mind. Without bearing the Teaching there is no examining of the meanings. Without an examination, there is no conviction. Without a conviction, there is no interest. Without an interest, there is no effort. Without effort there is no discrimination. Without discrimination there is no weighing. Without weighing, there is no confrontation. Those gone astray are on the wrong track. Bhikkhus, the foolish, not interested in this dispensation of Teaching, how far have they strayed?. >>

If you like to discuss the sutta you quoted, I am most delighted. If you wish to discuss Dependent Origination, I am also be very glad

Cheers
KC (aka Ken O)
Brizzy

Re: Vipassana

Post by Brizzy »

ashkenn wrote:((Your argument seems inwardly flawed. You say "One could consider Dhamma" how would one do this, if you had not had the desire to hear the Dhamma in the first place? Magic? You are almost implying that the decision to learn/acquire Dhamma/panna, has to be an occurence, outside of dependent origination. The following sutta shows that the Buddha was a straight forward teacher, who knew that craving for the ending of suffering was the spur for the Noble search.))

KO: Dependent origination originates from ignorance and craving. What the sutta shows that this nun is infatuated with Ven Ananda and Ven Ananda explain to the nun on the danger of cravings. The nun at the end of the sutta confess her faults. Hence craving even to see another exalted person is unwholesome for the sake of knowing more dhamma.


Craving in the sense of sexual desire - the bridge is to be abandoned - the nun obviously had designs on Ananda. However craving in this sense :-"'This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? There is the case, sister, where a monk hears, 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now.' The thought occurs to him, 'I hope that I, too, will — through the ending of the fermentations — enter & remain in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for myself in the here & now.' Then, at a later time, he abandons craving, having relied on craving. 'This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said."
is to be relied upon.


Faith is on of the factor in conditon one to listen to the dhamma. Pse see MN 70
http://www.mahindarama.com/e-tipitaka/M ... /mn-70.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

<<Bhikkhus, I do not convince of perfection right at the beginning. It is a gradual ascent, with gradual training, action, and follow up. Bhikkhus, how does the conviction of perfection come about with gradual training, action, and follow up? Bhikkhus, someone approaches when faith is born. Then he associates. Associating lends ear. Listening bears the Teaching. Bearing the Teaching examines the meanings. Examining the meanings some conviction arises. Pleased with that conviction an interest arises for the Teaching. With interest there is effort. With that effort there is weighing. Weighing realizes the highest truth with the body, and wisely penetrates it.

Bhikkhus, without faith, there is no approach. Without the approach there is no association. Without association there is no lending ear. Without lending ear there is no listening, Without listening, the Teaching is not borne in the mind. Without bearing the Teaching there is no examining of the meanings. Without an examination, there is no conviction. Without a conviction, there is no interest. Without an interest, there is no effort. Without effort there is no discrimination. Without discrimination there is no weighing. Without weighing, there is no confrontation. Those gone astray are on the wrong track. Bhikkhus, the foolish, not interested in this dispensation of Teaching, how far have they strayed?. >>

If you like to discuss the sutta you quoted, I am most delighted. If you wish to discuss Dependent Origination, I am also be very glad


Cheers
KC (aka Ken O)

How would you define "conidering the Dhamma"?

Even before faith arises, the disciple has had to have had a report of the teacher or teaching - he develops - confidence - he visits etc. It is a beginning of the path, that is still rooted within dependent origination and hopefully will take one through transcendental origination.

:smile:
ashkenn
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:09 am

Re: Vipassana

Post by ashkenn »

((How would you define "conidering the Dhamma"?

Even before faith arises, the disciple has had to have had a report of the teacher or teaching - he develops - confidence - he visits etc. It is a beginning of the path, that is still rooted within dependent origination and hopefully will take one through transcendental origination.))

KO: considering dhamma is to understand dhamma when it arise is not self at the present moment. Now we cannot know the first arisen of faith or panna, just like we do not know the first arisen of ignorance.

Faith could arise due to a few reasons, a chance to read dhamma books. Others eg; one question life and search for an answer, and then meet dhamma or a wise person who explain dhamma etc. Thereafter, when one read, investigate one's read and have confidence of the text, faith arises.

One will be rooted in samasara as long as craving is not extinguished, ignorance is not eradicated. the 4NT shows also that craving is the cause of the mass of suffering just like in D.O. That does not mean one cannot esapce from it. The escape is the 8NP in the 4NT. D.O. shows that it is just conditions, there is no self involved in the whole process. Considering dhamma is to develop right view of that dhamma arise and fall due to conditions, there is no self in dhamma or in D.O

Cheers
Ken O
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