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Load of Kalapas - Dhamma Wheel

Load of Kalapas

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Brizzy

Load of Kalapas

Postby Brizzy » Thu Mar 18, 2010 5:08 am

Hi

In a spirit of inquiry :tongue: :-

1. Are "Kalapas" mentioned in the four Nikayas?

2. In the same vein, is momentary concentration or sixteen nanas mentioned in the four Nikayas?

3. Is a seven fold Noble path mentioned in the four Nikayas?

4. Does sati actually mean bare attention? Or does it mean "thinking/recollecting"?

5. Is access concentration mentioned in the four Nikayas?

6. Do path/fruit arise one after the other according to the four Nikayas?

7. If later works differ from the four Nikayas, should we twist words and meanings to make the suttas fit the later teachings?

8. Do the four Nikayas state that Anatta is a reality of existence?

9. Do the four Nikayas teach the ten paramis?

10. Do the four Nikayas, state that when the Buddha has gone, then the suttas & vinaya should be a monks guide and nothing else.(this is the most important question).

:smile:

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retrofuturist
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Re: Load of Kalapas

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Mar 18, 2010 5:38 am

Greetings Brizzy,

Without double-checking my answers...

1. No
2. No
3. No
4. It probably encompasses both.
5. No
6. Don't know - it depends how you define 'path' (i.e. there, or on the way there?)
7. No
8. All dhammas are not-self, not "I", not mine
9. No
10. Yes

Thank you for your participation in the Dhammic-Free-For-All!

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

Brizzy

Re: Load of Kalapas

Postby Brizzy » Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:03 am


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Alex123
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Re: Load of Kalapas

Postby Alex123 » Sat Mar 20, 2010 10:39 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Re: Load of Kalapas

Postby rowyourboat » Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:44 pm

1. Are "Kalapas" mentioned in the four Nikayas? Not as far as I know

2. In the same vein, is momentary concentration or sixteen nanas mentioned in the four Nikayas? Sankhara upekkha (nana?) is mentioned. Not the others.

3. Is a seven fold Noble path mentioned in the four Nikayas? Not as far as I know

4. Does sati actually mean bare attention? Or does it mean "thinking/recollecting"? Evidence for both definitions.

5. Is access concentration mentioned in the four Nikayas? Not as far as I know

6. Do path/fruit arise one after the other according to the four Nikayas? yes, but as people not as moments.

7. If later works differ from the four Nikayas, should we twist words and meanings to make the suttas fit the later teachings?
:)
8. Do the four Nikayas state that Anatta is a reality of existence? yes, to monks who were practicing, not to outsiders to the dhamma

9. Do the four Nikayas teach the ten paramis? not in that format, as far as I know

10. Do the four Nikayas, state that when the Buddha has gone, then the suttas & vinaya should be a monks guide and nothing else.(this is the most important question). indeed
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

Brizzy

Re: Load of Kalapas

Postby Brizzy » Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:05 am


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Re: Load of Kalapas

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:07 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

Brizzy

Re: Load of Kalapas

Postby Brizzy » Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:00 am


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Re: Load of Kalapas

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:08 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

Brizzy

Re: Load of Kalapas

Postby Brizzy » Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:18 am


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Re: Load of Kalapas

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:49 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

Virgo
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Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:52 pm

Re: Load of Kalapas

Postby Virgo » Mon Mar 22, 2010 12:10 pm

Hi Birzzy,

What does arise? A controllable self?

Kevin


Brizzy

Re: Load of Kalapas

Postby Brizzy » Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:01 pm


rowyourboat
Posts: 1952
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Location: London, UK

Re: Load of Kalapas

Postby rowyourboat » Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:27 pm

With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

Brizzy

Re: Load of Kalapas

Postby Brizzy » Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:59 am


rowyourboat
Posts: 1952
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Re: Load of Kalapas

Postby rowyourboat » Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:44 pm

Hi Brizzy

You ask what definition he gives sati-before I answer this question I wish to raise a point- that is that coming to conclusions based on one sutta is the source of much misunderstanding. To think that reading the what is in the suttas and practising that without any guidance whatsoever can lead to enlightenment is rather amateurish. If you want to understand something look at the whole of the dhamma vinaya, look at the context, then finally perhaps look at the pali breakdown of the word. If you have a dhamma practice also look at that. When you 'triangulate' all these sources you can get closer to what the Buddha really meant. The sutta itself is not going to be enough, but real world practice should find it's foundations and framework (ie- rooted) within the suttas.

The definition of sati includes remembering according to a sutta. But look at this: 'breathing in long he knows he is breathing in long'. This is about anapana-sati. This is not about remembering- it is about being aware. This also dovetails with the definitions of the dhamma- it is not based on time-akalika (ie- present moment), also from the satipatthana- one sees the body in the body, feelings in feelings etc and not as memories or thoughts. There is way too much evidence that this is about present moment awareness. Another telling sutta is the factors of stream entry- factor 3) yonisomanasikara- right contemplation 4) dhammanudhammapatipada- satipatthana practice- why are these two different?

Have the suttas been distorted to fit in line with newer teachings? Are you expecting a simply yes or no answer? :)

Consider this- the human mind is amazingly complex, different people's complexities are different, the methods of what will drive such minds from point a to point b are varied, the teaching styles that different personalities will find effective are varied, different interpretations (Which is all what we have- even ours) of the pali suttas are varied. Ultimately with this level of complexity how can anyone say that there is only one way (as in the suttas) that works for everyone, and the suttas have been perfectly understood to know what that one way is, in the first place. What we have now is a system that different teachers teach what they understand to be the dhamma- it may work, it may not. Who are we to say? But it is interesting that there isn't one teacher that I have come across that can confidently say that the pure satipatthana method from the suttas is the way to go. To me this says that there is much work in understanding the suttas to be done.
:namaste:
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha


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