Vipassana

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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Alex123
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Re: Vipassana

Post by Alex123 »

ashkenn wrote:((You allow it to grow by not shaving it. You feed the body with nutrients, part of which are responcible for beard to grow.

So you do set conditions for it to grow.))

When you do set, there is already an I that has arisen to set on it. When "I" arisen, there is miccha ditthi and that is aksuala.
The same can be said about studying and considering the Dhamma.
Understanding is not about I doing this or that, it is about understanding the nature of our present experience and understand it as anatta.
This is what a proper meditation should be for. To learn about anatta and presently arisen namarupa.
If you just thought of it and natrually without any other thoughts of intentionally or purposedly do it, then that is faith or panna that condition it and not cravings.
This is how meditation should be done. Without any false idea of control or expectations.



With metta,

Alex
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BlackBird
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Re: Vipassana

Post by BlackBird »

I guess my questions Brizzy, are: Have you ever practiced Vipassana under an experienced teacher before? What are your grounds to challenge the efficacy of the Vissudhimagga and Goenka based systems?

metta
Jack
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Re: Vipassana

Post by Brizzy »

BlackBird wrote:I guess my questions Brizzy, are: Have you ever practiced Vipassana under an experienced teacher before? What are your grounds to challenge the efficacy of the Vissudhimagga and Goenka based systems?

metta
Jack
Yes & my grounds for challenging the Vissudhimagga and Goenka based systems are that I am a follower of the Buddha not the Vissudhimagga and Goenka based systems. If the Buddha taught these systems, I cant find them.
I believe the danger in such systems are that they work! Strange & powerful effects can & do arise, but the same thing could be said following kundalini practice(so I've heard). The question should be are these experiences in line with the Dhamma? some are - but a lot are not, and if you approach any system with wrong view, things are going to go wrong. The similarities between a Goenka teaching and the teachings of the niganthas(jains) is so marked, that it defies belief. Whatever anybody may say to the contrary, Goenka believes that our kammas are eradicated, by their arising and passing & staying "equanimous" with the process. If people look carefully at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html they will see that this is nonsense. The introduction by Thanissaro Bhikkhu is also worth a read.
At this point it is also worth mentioning that I considered Goenka as my teacher for many years. Whilst I have shied away from his interpretation of the Dhamma, I still have respect for him in some ways. On his courses, which are freely given, I was able to understand that not all dhamma teachings are Dhamma.
As for the Vissudhimagga, well if Goenka is jain the Vissudhimagga seems a little Hindu. If its not spelt out in the four Nikayas - why bother?

:smile:

Please read the above sutta with an open heart :anjali:

Compare it to the Q & A in this :- http://www.udaya.dhamma.org/ebook/Medit ... l9801.html
:smile:
ashkenn
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Re: Vipassana

Post by ashkenn »

<<The same can be said about studying and considering the Dhamma>>
Definitely when we study and consider dhamma, there is a action or do. We are not denying the do part. We are saying we cannot go and purposedly control cittas. The nature of the citta will continue to rise and fall, because dhamma is anatta. Just like we cannot wish not to grow old, we will still grow old.

<<This is what a proper meditation should be for. To learn about anatta and presently arisen namarupa.>>
What is proper meditation? Are you comtemplating the rise and fall or fixing on an object. We have to clear about it. Also we do not need meditation for understanding of nama and rupa, it could be understood even when you type your email. Meditation could be translated from the word bhavana or jhanas or samadhi. Each of this word means differently in Pali and application is also different.


<<This is how meditation should be done. Without any false idea of control or expectations.>>
That is correct but do we know what is not control or expectations. Your earlier email is not consistent with this email ((So you do set conditions for it to grow.)) I may interpret wrongly, you may like to tell me more? If we do not have clear comprehension of dhamma, we cannot do meditation. The danger is that we may unconsciousnessly taking pleasant feeling or indifference feeling that arise with meditation as meditation.

Cheers
Ken O
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Alex123
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Re: Vipassana

Post by Alex123 »

ashkenn wrote: What is proper meditation? Are you comtemplating the rise and fall or fixing on an object.
Proper meditation is non-conceptually being aware of presently changing flow of namarupa. Even if one does anapanasati, it is still done with the awareness of changing namarupa. With more and more close observation of changing namarupa, one is able to see it more clearer and in greater detail. The direct experiential knowledge gained, little by little, will change the natural behaviour of the mind (make it less distracted, etc).

Does that answer your questions?

Best wishes,

Alex
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jcsuperstar
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Re: Vipassana

Post by jcsuperstar »

i would suggest the anapanasati sutta as the answer to the question of what proper meditation is.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
Kenshou
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Re: Vipassana

Post by Kenshou »

jcsuperstar wrote:i would suggest the anapanasati sutta as the answer to the question of what proper meditation is.
I'm inclined to agree with this. The anapanasati sutta combined with the satipatthana sutta is pretty much the best practical guidance I can think of. Though different interpretations of those are all over the map, I guess.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Vipassana

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Kenshou,
Kenshou wrote:The anapanasati sutta combined with the satipatthana sutta is pretty much the best practical guidance I can think of.
:thumbsup:
Kenshou wrote:Though different interpretations of those are all over the map, I guess.
Which may only be a problem if someone feels the need to be straitjacketed into a narrow and prescriptive technique.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Brizzy

Re: Vipassana

Post by Brizzy »

Brizzy wrote:Hi

Are the vipassana techniques, taught through the Mahasi & Goenka centres, relatively new inventions based on commentarial works? .......................
............................... That is why I ask if these techniques are relatively new.

Metta :smile:
Hi

:focus:

BTW ......No Mahayana sutras allowed to "prove" lineage! :tongue:

:smile:
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Ben
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Re: Vipassana

Post by Ben »

Brizzy wrote:
Brizzy wrote:Hi

Are the vipassana techniques, taught through the Mahasi & Goenka centres, relatively new inventions based on commentarial works? .......................
............................... That is why I ask if these techniques are relatively new.

Metta :smile:
Hi

:focus:

BTW ......No Mahayana sutras allowed to "prove" lineage! :tongue:

:smile:
I'm sorry, but who made you a moderator?
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bodom
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Re: Vipassana

Post by bodom »

Kenshou wrote:
jcsuperstar wrote:i would suggest the anapanasati sutta as the answer to the question of what proper meditation is.
I'm inclined to agree with this. The anapanasati sutta combined with the satipatthana sutta is pretty much the best practical guidance I can think of.
I would include the Bahiya sutta along with these two as well.


:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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retrofuturist
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Re: Vipassana

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
bodom wrote:I would include the Bahiya sutta along with these two as well.
:thumbsup:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Brizzy

Re: Vipassana

Post by Brizzy »

Ben wrote:
Brizzy wrote:
Brizzy wrote:Hi

Are the vipassana techniques, taught through the Mahasi & Goenka centres, relatively new inventions based on commentarial works? .......................
............................... That is why I ask if these techniques are relatively new.

Metta :smile:
Hi

:focus:

BTW ......No Mahayana sutras allowed to "prove" lineage! :tongue:

:smile:


I'm sorry, but who made you a moderator?
Peace

:smile:
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jcsuperstar
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Re: Vipassana

Post by jcsuperstar »

bodom wrote:
Kenshou wrote:
jcsuperstar wrote:i would suggest the anapanasati sutta as the answer to the question of what proper meditation is.
I'm inclined to agree with this. The anapanasati sutta combined with the satipatthana sutta is pretty much the best practical guidance I can think of.
I would include the Bahiya sutta along with these two as well.


:anjali:
i was going to add this but thought it wasn't enough about formal meditation. i do use it when talking to soto-zen buddhist on how to understand shikantaza from the buddha's perspective though
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
ashkenn
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Re: Vipassana

Post by ashkenn »

<<Proper meditation is non-conceptually being aware of presently changing flow of namarupa. Even if one does anapanasati, it is still done with the awareness of changing namarupa. With more and more close observation of changing namarupa, one is able to see it more clearer and in greater detail. The direct experiential knowledge gained, little by little, will change the natural behaviour of the mind (make it less distracted, etc).

Does that answer your questions?>>

KO: No, you are mixing up the practise. The preliminary stage is fixing on the breath, breath in long and short. It is always said that after fixing on the breath, one attains jhanas. Then the jhanas is a basis for insight which is the understanding of nama and rupa. You think you are ready to do breathing meditation?


Cheers
Ken O
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