Women can't become Buddhas?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Jechbi
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by Jechbi »

Annabel wrote:
Heavenstorm wrote:..... Buddhas only appear at times where males authority in the society will be predominant
= when the dhamma is lost completely.

Thank you.
:goodpost:

Personally I don't see any problem with continuing to discuss this. As long as people have a realistic expectation of what's going on here. We're probably not going to find an explanation that will satisfy anyone. Meanwhile, we're stirring up emotions, and that's going to cause some to feel upset. Whether that's justified or not, I think we have to expect it will happen. I suggest we give each other space for that.

For my part, I don't believe Ven. Dhammanando intended any sarcasm whatever, and I feel his comparisons were apt if one reads them without inserting baggage that is not really there.

Also, I think the question needs to be framed: "Why can't Buddha be a woman," rather than "Why can't a woman become a Buddha." It's a subtle difference. Again, nobody here has questioned the ability of women, nobody here has said women are less capable than men in any way.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Women can't become Buddhas?

Post by tiltbillings »

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>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

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Gregory Wonderwheel
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by Gregory Wonderwheel »

Heavenstorm wrote: Basically, in Theravada, without the Buddha, one can't take the vow. Gender equality is a fairly modern development and I speculate that Buddhas only appear at times where males authority in the society will be predominant but at the same times, it is also where right conditions for achieving and teaching Dharma could be found. Don't ask me how and those two seem to go in hand in hand. I never read any stories in sutta to suggest that Buddha appears in a society where the equality of sexes as held strongly as per now.

As proven that its only in the Dharma ending times like now, female power will rise and surpass the guys. By that time, Buddha is no longer around..............
What I get from this discussion thread is that the Theravada framing of a worldview is too constricting for me.

The idea that because it was said in one or two places of ancient oral traditions written down several hundreds of years later that a Buddha is a man, therefore no Buddha can be a woman, as if the pariarchial worldview of India in 500 BC is the inherent worldview of the cosmos is just too silly for me.

Also the literalization of a the Buddhist version of the "end times" of a Dharma ending age appears to be a mythological comfort blanket. Anyone who thinks that today there is less Dharma present in the world compared to 500 or 1000 years ago seems to be living in a fantasy world to me. Today the Dharma is flowing around the awareness of the entire planet and is certainly not "ending."

I guess the great attraction of the Mahayana and EKayana for me is that these Dharmas and dharmas are not taken literally. The images and myths of Buddhism are to be taken as the means to talk to people at different levels of development of consciousness, and not to be taken literally as actual dogmatic statements about the structure of reality.

The idea that female equality is somehow tied to the Dharma ending age and the ending of Buddha teaching in the world is to me ignorant and superstitious and just the rationalization of male Buddhists who want to keep their power and control over women and use theor rationalizations of the Suttas to keep their power. It is no better than the Catholic church using the Bible to rationalize their patriarchial power over society.


_/|\_
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pink_trike
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by pink_trike »

Peter wrote: I would go even further and say that being born a man in a male-dominated society is the product of better karma than being born a woman in a male-dominated society.
I don't get this. Could you be more specific? It seems to me it would be the opposite...but I often see things backwards.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Women can't become Buddhas?

Post by tiltbillings »

The idea that because it was said in one or two places of ancient oral traditions written down several hundreds of years later that a Buddha is a man, therefore no Buddha can be a woman, as if the pariarchial worldview of India in 500 BC is the inherent worldview of the cosmos is just too silly for me.



I guess the great attraction of the Mahayana and EKayana for me is that these Dharmas and dharmas are not taken literally. The images and myths of Buddhism are to be taken as the means to talk to people at different levels of development of consciousness, and not to be taken literally as actual dogmatic statements about the structure of reality.
You may not take “Dharmas and dharmas” literally, but I have seen plenty of Mahayanists that do, vehemently. Equally, I know of plenty of Theravadins who understand ”The images and myths of Buddhism are to be taken as the means to talk to people at different levels of development of consciousness, and not to be taken literally as actual dogmatic statements about the structure of reality.”
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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pink_trike
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Re: Women can't become Buddhas?

Post by pink_trike »

Heavenstorm wrote:Besides, gender equality is a rare occurrence. Rarely are females being treated as equal in the history of humans
Gender equality in premodern societies wasn't as rare as was once thought. We know know that in many premodern societies women and men had different roles and contributed differently to society but were still considered equal, including in leadership capabilities.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: Women can't become Buddhas?

Post by Ngawang Drolma. »

pink_trike wrote:
Heavenstorm wrote:Besides, gender equality is a rare occurrence. Rarely are females being treated as equal in the history of humans
Gender equality in premodern societies wasn't as rare as was once thought. We know know that in many premodern societies women and men had different roles and contributed differently to society but were still considered equal, including in leadership capabilities.
I would be interested in reading about such societies. I love history. Where would you point someone for a starting place, pink_trike?

Thanks :)
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Re: Women can't become Buddhas?

Post by Heavenstorm »

pink_trike wrote:
Heavenstorm wrote:Besides, gender equality is a rare occurrence. Rarely are females being treated as equal in the history of humans
Gender equality in premodern societies wasn't as rare as was once thought. We know know that in many premodern societies women and men had different roles and contributed differently to society but were still considered equal, including in leadership capabilities.
Sorry, besides Ancient Persia, Egypt and perhaps Greece, I rarely read how women were respected in the history, especially in the medieval times in China, India, Europe and Middle East as various religions and philosophical systems located there clearly held man as being the superior gender.
What I get from this discussion thread is that the Theravada framing of a worldview is too constricting for me.
Well, this is a Theravada forum, what do you expect?
Also the literalization of a the Buddhist version of the "end times" of a Dharma ending age appears to be a mythological comfort blanket. Anyone who thinks that today there is less Dharma present in the world compared to 500 or 1000 years ago seems to be living in a fantasy world to me. Today the Dharma is flowing around the awareness of the entire planet and is certainly not "ending."
"Dharma ending age" is also widely recognized fact among the Mahayana circle. Its irony that you made a big claim about your preference of Mahayana, yet ignorant of that fact.

Dharma ending age got nothing to do with the availability of Dharma, you have no idea what you are talking about. There is a general consensus that the fruits of Dharma practice is diminishing every 500 or 1000 year. Given the comparison between the number of recognized Arahants found during the first few hundred years of Buddhism in India and those found in the present times. It is easily concluded that attaining Arahantship in this times are very difficult if not impossible. I don't think you will find any Theravadins that disagree with that.
The idea that female equality is somehow tied to the Dharma ending age and the ending of Buddha teaching in the world is to me ignorant and superstitious and just the rationalization of male Buddhists who want to keep their power and control over women and use theor rationalizations of the Suttas to keep their power. It is no better than the Catholic church using the Bible to rationalize their patriarchial power over society.
[EDIT: Aggressive ad-homonim attacks removed... there is no need for them. Retro.]
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Re: Women can't become Buddhas?

Post by Annapurna »

[EDIT: Examples of perceived Wrong Speech removed... if you have objections to posts, please use the Report Post function rather than side-tracking conversation with complaints about them. Thank you. Retro.]


"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."

— SN 45.8


Five keys to right speech

"Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five?

"It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will."

— AN 5.198
Heavenstorm
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Re: Women can't become Buddhas?

Post by Heavenstorm »

This thread has no need of "Dharma police" as already stated earlier,thank you very much.
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Re: Women can't become Buddhas?

Post by Ben »

Dear members

Please return to topic.

Kind regards

Ben
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jcsuperstar
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Re: Women can't become Buddhas?

Post by jcsuperstar »

Annabel wrote:

"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."

— SN 45.8


Five keys to right speech

"Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five?

"It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will."

— AN 5.198
here lays your slipperly slope... you dont want to accept some parts of the canon cause you dont like what it says, yet youre fully willing to throw other parts at people because it helps you. now what if one were to claim those right speech parts were added by monks why didnt want free and open discussion, that it was all some ancient sri lankan conspiracy?
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by teacup_bo »

kowtaaia wrote:
Elohim wrote:... Perhaps the Buddha himself never said that women are inferior to men...
Ya think? :) Of course, the Buddha never said that. Awakening has nothing to do with gender.
Thankyou, kowtaaia.

Out of all the myths that we humans share amidst each other - for example, separation, selfishness, money - this has got to be one of the most harmful for spiritual seekers.

It is picked up and spread sometimes within Buddhist schools, with some traditions more proponents of it than others.

Still, we are fortunate to find that those who practice "well" as the Buddha taught, seem to get over their gender hangups and immature concepts like "inferiority" soon. In the meantime, there's always Fox News to add to the set of strong beliefs as well, for those that are into this sort of thing.

:hug:
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Re: Women can't become Buddhas?

Post by DNS »

jcsuperstar wrote:
Annabel wrote: "And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."
— SN 45.8

Five keys to right speech

"Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five?

"It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will."

— AN 5.198
here lays your slipperly slope... you dont want to accept some parts of the canon cause you dont like what it says, yet youre fully willing to throw other parts at people because it helps you. now what if one were to claim those right speech parts were added by monks why didnt want free and open discussion, that it was all some ancient sri lankan conspiracy?
References to Right Speech in this thread are probably off-topic, but in my opinion it can be okay in some circumstances to use some passages from some books while not giving as much weight to others. This can be done if there is a science to it, for example, taking the early texts as the most important, see:

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=530" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (Chronology of the Pali Canon)

But, if there is no science to it and one just 'picks and chooses' what one likes and does not like, then that would be the so-called 'cherry-picking.'

The Anguttara, Samyutta, Digha, and Majjhima Nikayas are clearly early texts and contain much repetition throughout.
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Re: Women can't become Buddhas?

Post by Annapurna »

Heavenstorm wrote:This thread has no need of "Dharma police" as already stated earlier,thank you very much.
Heavenstorm,

please understand this as a plea and appeal to the best in all of us: more kindness and harmlessness with each other every day, myself included very much so.
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