Can liberation be spontaneous?
Can liberation be spontaneous?
There are some stories in the Suttas where monks becomes liberated after a sermon by the Buddha. And there are a few who are liberated through some kind of incident. So does that mean liberation can also happen spontaneously instead of the usual way through meditation?
- appicchato
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Re: Can liberation be spontaneous?
Basically, for the yet-to-be liberated, all we have to go on is the 'stories in the suttas'...so, if you give credence to the suttas, it would seem that way...
Re: Can liberation be spontaneous?
My apologies to Venerable Appichatto for appearing to contradict you but my understanding is that regardless of how rapid the progress from putthujhana to Arahant, all go through the intervening stages of sotapanna, sakadagami, and anagami. I hope to dredge out some references after work tonight. Hopefully, someone else can provide something for you in the interim.
metta
Ben
metta
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
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- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
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Re: Can liberation be spontaneous?
What do you mean by "liberation" exactly? eg. arahant? does sotaapanna count, yet?Wind wrote:There are some stories in the Suttas where monks becomes liberated after a sermon by the Buddha. And there are a few who are liberated through some kind of incident. So does that mean liberation can also happen spontaneously instead of the usual way through meditation?
And,
what do you mean by "spontaneous" exactly? eg. without cause? without meditation? (if so, what do you classify as "meditation"? - a tiny bit, access, first jhana, fourth jhana?...)
The usual explanation is that liberation from the bonds occurs through insight, not through meditation. Though some degree of meditation is required for insight.
Having an "incident" occur does not necessarily deny the presence of either meditation (in some form or another) or insight, either.
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.
Re: Can liberation be spontaneous?
If people had samatha as their vehicle, they would attain the jhanas and use it as a basis for insight. Other people were sukkhavipassana-yanika, the dry-insight vehicle. They only developed vipassana bhavana through hearing the dhamma and reflecting on it/understanding it. Some did both. It depends on conditions.
Kevin
Kevin
Re: Can liberation be spontaneous?
In the first edition of this book I stated here that the four paths have to be passed through sequentially, such that there is no attainment of a higher path without first having reached the paths below it. This certainly seems to be the position of the commentaries. However, the suttas sometimes show individuals proceeding directly from the stage of a worldling to the third or even the fourth path and fruit in rapid succession, the canonical texts themselves give no indication that this has transpired but suggest an immediate realization of the higher stages without the intermediate attainment of the lower stages. - Bhikkhu Bodhi The Noble Eightfold Path
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.
- BB
- BB
Re: Can liberation be spontaneous?
Yes by liberation I meant arahantship.Paññāsikhara wrote: What do you mean by "liberation" exactly? eg. arahant?
what do you mean by "spontaneous" exactly? eg. without cause? without meditation? (if so, what do you classify as "meditation"? - a tiny bit, access, first jhana, fourth jhana?...)
By spontaneous I meant it happen rapidly through a sudden insight realized, seemingly without an active intent like it would be through meditation. By meditation I mean in&out breathing etc, also include going through jhanas.
I'm sure insight is what occur definitely. But some stories doesn't seem to indicate any active meditation was involved, although it could have been but the way it was told gave me the opposite impression.
The usual explanation is that liberation from the bonds occurs through insight, not through meditation. Though some degree of meditation is required for insight.
Having an "incident" occur does not necessarily deny the presence of either meditation (in some form or another) or insight, either.
Last edited by Wind on Sun Mar 28, 2010 5:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Can liberation be spontaneous?
Yes this is what I meant, although some of the individuals actually attain full released with sudden and immediate realization. If this is to be the case, I wonder how does it happen?bodom wrote:In the first edition of this book I stated here that the four paths have to be passed through sequentially, such that there is no attainment of a higher path without first having reached the paths below it. This certainly seems to be the position of the commentaries. However, the suttas sometimes show individuals proceeding directly from the stage of a worldling to the third or even the fourth path and fruit in rapid succession, the canonical texts themselves give no indication that this has transpired but suggest an immediate realization of the higher stages without the intermediate attainment of the lower stages. - Bhikkhu Bodhi The Noble Eightfold Path
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Re: Can liberation be spontaneous?
I seem to remember reading (or hearing) that those close to the Buddha were able to attain enlightenment more rapidly in that life because of kamma of previous existences. Hard work lifetime after lifetime coming to fruit as the Buddha taught them the last key needed for enlightenment.
I can't think of a reference for this right now but I'll keep thinking.
I can't think of a reference for this right now but I'll keep thinking.
Re: Can liberation be spontaneous?
Bhikkhu Bodhi's amended statement above is actually indicative of how this process can truly occur. If you read the discourses carefully, there are a number of different individuals to whom this occurred in the suttas. Sariputta, Mahamoggallana, and Bahiya are just three who are mentioned. A good book to read about the events surrounding these first two would be Great Disciples of the Buddha.Wind wrote:Yes this is what I meant, although some of the individuals actually attain full released with sudden and immediate realization. If this is to be the case, I wonder how does it happen?bodom wrote:In the first edition of this book I stated here that the four paths have to be passed through sequentially, such that there is no attainment of a higher path without first having reached the paths below it. This certainly seems to be the position of the commentaries. However, the suttas sometimes show individuals proceeding directly from the stage of a worldling to the third or even the fourth path and fruit in rapid succession, the canonical texts themselves give no indication that this has transpired but suggest an immediate realization of the higher stages without the intermediate attainment of the lower stages. - Bhikkhu Bodhi The Noble Eightfold Path
The first two of these individuals, according to the impressions of them given in the suttas, were highly intelligent, capable, and discerning individuals who achieved arahanthood rather quickly after having met and become disciples of the Buddha.
The third individual, Bahiya, encountered the Buddha just once, was given some advice, and according to the sutta, achieved liberation just before he was killed by a cow that attacked him. That story is in the Udana (Ud. 1.10; John D. Ireland translation), a volume contained in the Khuddaka Nikaya. It is well worth reading and studying if you have an interest in this process. It may give you some insight into that process.
"The gift of truth exceeds all other gifts" — Dhammapada, v. 354 Craving XXIV
Re: Can liberation be spontaneous?
There is some explanation about Bahiya liberation: http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... ACHING.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;IanAnd wrote:The third individual, Bahiya, encountered the Buddha just once, was given some advice, and according to the sutta, achieved liberation just before he was killed by a cow that attacked him. That story is in the Udana (Ud. 1.10; John D. Ireland translation), a volume contained in the Khuddaka Nikaya. It is well worth reading and studying if you have an interest in this process. It may give you some insight into that process.
Original story: Ud. 1.10
- jcsuperstar
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Re: Can liberation be spontaneous?
does a fruit ripen on a tree spontaneously? or is it due to specific conditions, it being the right season for it to happen and so forth?
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ
the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
Re: Can liberation be spontaneous?
To be at the same time, in the same place than Bouddha Sakyamuni ... is it not a "special" condition ? there is no hazard, those being there at that time had the karma for ...
Sönam
Sönam
no hope ... no fear
Re: Can liberation be spontaneous?
Exactly so Sonam.