What is conducive to awakening?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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BlackBird
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Re: What is conducive to awakening?

Post by BlackBird »

The noble eightfold path? I dunno...

:anjali: mate
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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Goofaholix
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Re: What is conducive to awakening?

Post by Goofaholix »

gabrielbranbury wrote:
Goofaholix wrote:What is conducive to awakening is the absence of that which is un-conducive (if that's even a real word).

Awakened is our natural state however so much of what we attach to, obsesses over, or believe to be real muddy's the waters. That's why so much of our practice is staying with the raw bare bones of our experience.
Hi Goofaholix,

What if the raw bare bones of our experience is obsessing, attaching, and believing the mud is real?

I am sympathetic to the cultivation of relaxed effort but I dont really think that it helps much to declare that our natural state is awakened. By what measure do we declare a state to be "natural"? In my view positive steps must be taken in order to bring about the appropriate conditions under which we develop in a positive manner. I would say this is only "natural". The degree to which conditions are unsupportive to Awakening is the degree to which Awakening is unlikely. I would say this is only "natural".

Metta

Gabe
If the raw bare bones of our experience is obsessing, attaching, and believing the mud is real then I'd say there was no hope for us. I suspect you didn't really understand my post, I certainly wasn't advocating not taking positive steps.

The raw bare bones of our experience that I was referring to are things like breathing, walking, sensations in the body, arising and passing away, thinking without getting involved in the story line. These are the practices I've been taught, when I undertake these practices properly I find all the crap fades away into the background, this is the absence of the un-conducive that I find conducive.

We declare a state as natural by measure of what the Buddhas teaching would have us become, by natural I mean the way we are meant to be but I suspect you've read it as "normal". It may be normal for us to be obsessing, attaching, and believing the mud is real but it's not natural, that's why we suffer because of it, that's why the Buddha taught us the way out of it.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Sönam
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Re: What is conducive to awakening?

Post by Sönam »

Goofaholix wrote:What is conducive to awakening is the absence of that which is un-conducive (if that's even a real word).

Awakened is our natural state however so much of what we attach to, obsesses over, or believe to be real muddy's the waters. That's why so much of our practice is staying with the raw bare bones of our experience.
Hello all,

From my point of view, that's an interesting post ... it sounds like an answer a Vajra, even a Dzogchen, practitioner could do. It's quite based on the Second Turn's assumptions, that is the Buddha nature that we all possess, just it is obstructed by our kleshas. The image being "the sun does exists, even if you have never seen it because it is obstructed by clouds" ... and of course what is interesting are the consequences into the discipline, of that.
Any comment ?

Sönam
no hope ... no fear
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tiltbillings
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Re: What is conducive to awakening?

Post by tiltbillings »

Goofaholix wrote:Awakened is our natural state however so much of what we attach to, obsesses over, or believe to be real muddy's the waters. That's why so much of our practice is staying with the raw bare bones of our experience.
If that were so, then how did we loose it? Why did we loose it? Since we lost it, it no longer is our natural state? The Buddha made it quite clear that when we are awakened we do not loose it.

It is not really a very meaningful or useful conceptual structure to posit that awakening, being free of greed, hatred, and delusion is our natural state, given that greed, hatred, and delusion are what evolutionarily brought us to the human state in which most of us find ourselves.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: What is conducive to awakening?

Post by tiltbillings »

Sönam wrote:, that is the Buddha nature that we all possess, just it is obstructed by our kleshas.
The problem is possessing things.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
PeterB
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Re: What is conducive to awakening?

Post by PeterB »

tiltbillings wrote:
Sönam wrote:, that is the Buddha nature that we all possess, just it is obstructed by our kleshas.
The problem is possessing things.
Well I am afraid that i have lost mine. In fact I dont recall ever having had one. Was I too far down the queue when they were given out ?
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tiltbillings
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Re: What is conducive to awakening?

Post by tiltbillings »

PeterB wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Sönam wrote:, that is the Buddha nature that we all possess, just it is obstructed by our kleshas.
The problem is possessing things.
Well I am afraid that i have lost mine. In fact I dont recall ever having had one. Was I too far down the queue when they were given out ?
When I was a Catholic I used to possess an immortal soul which, in its natural state, was pure but it got all messed up than thanks to Adam and Eve wanting to know more than they should. But not being Catholic anymore, thanks be to gawd, I no longer have such a thing. Being Buddhist, it is a matter of letting go, which is easier said than done, given that I seem to assume I possess things. Why would the Buddha teach us that we possess something which cannot be found and the idea of which needs to be let go?

Dogen wisely equated buddhanature with impermanence. Nothing to possess there and there is certainly a lot of impermanence going on, but why complicate things with such unneeded notions as buddhanature?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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bodom
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Re: What is conducive to awakening?

Post by bodom »

PeterB wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Sönam wrote:, that is the Buddha nature that we all possess, just it is obstructed by our kleshas.
The problem is possessing things.
Well I am afraid that i have lost mine. In fact I dont recall ever having had one. Was I too far down the queue when they were given out ?
:jumping:

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Sönam
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Re: What is conducive to awakening?

Post by Sönam »

Possessing was a short cut, you are right nothing is possessed by no one ...

"The primordial purity of the original basis transcends the extremes of existence and non-existence, and it is the great transcending of the objects of conception and expression. As the essence of the basis is primordially pure, it transcends the extreme of existence, etarnalism, and it is not established as the phenomena of things or characteristics. As the nature of the basis is spontaneously accomplished, it transcends the extreme of non-existence, nihilism, and it is present as the purity, the ultimate nature of emptiness clarity, as the nature of the primordial Buddha, as the state of changeless ultimate body, as non-existent either as samsara or nirvana, and as the self-arisen great intrinsic wisdom which is present from primordial time like space.

Having broken the shell of the ceaselessness of the changeless intrinsic wisdom, the primordial basis of the originally pure inner ultimate sphere, by the flow of the energy/air of primordial wisdom, the self-appearances of the intrinsic awareness flash out from the basis as the "eight spontaneously accomplished doors". When the appearances spontaneously arise from the inner clarity as the outer clarity, the appearances of their essence are self-clarity, which is the space of unobstructedness, the appearances of their nature are the natural/original glow as the five lights, and the appearances of compassion are the aspect of providing the cloudness sky-like space. This is the arising of the appearances of the basis from the basis.

When the appearances of the basis arise, phenomenal existents arise as the lights and bodies. It is called the appearances of everything as the spontaneously accomplished field. ... from their power of compassion of that field arise the door aspects of samsara, like dreams.

At the very movement of the arising of the intrinsic awareness from the basis, "the eight spontaneous appearances of the basis" arise naturally. At that moment, by not apprehending those appearances as others and by realizing them as the natural glow/self radiance with a pure mind, the movements of the intrinsic awareness cease in themselves. At the first movement, by realizing the self-essence of the self-appearances, the realization of the true meaning develops ... At the second movement, the delusions are dispelled and the perfection of primordial wisdom develops. That is the development of the basis itself as the result of enlightenment. ...

Through the aspect of not realizing the essence of "the appearances of the basis" themselves as they are, one becomes distracted into the delusions ..."

This is a teaching corresponding to my answer ... but I may understand that it would be difficult for you to accept it.
Therefore, except if there is a constructive answer, I would considere the discussion as having an end there.

Sönam
no hope ... no fear
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tiltbillings
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Re: What is conducive to awakening?

Post by tiltbillings »

Sönam wrote:Possessing was a short cut, you are right nothing is possessed by no one ...
All very unnecessarily complicated and does sound a bit atman-ish in the process.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Guy
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Re: What is conducive to awakening?

Post by Guy »

Hi Sonam,

Can you please sum what you just posted in layman's terms? I don't get it...

With Metta,

Guy
Four types of letting go:

1) Giving; expecting nothing back in return
2) Throwing things away
3) Contentment; wanting to be here, not wanting to be anywhere else
4) "Teflon Mind"; having a mind which doesn't accumulate things

- Ajahn Brahm
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ground
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Re: What is conducive to awakening?

Post by ground »

"Awakening" perhaps is too indefinite and therefore this term may be conducive to speculation.
Why not simply say "What is conducive to cessation of dukkha?"

Kind regards
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Sönam
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Re: What is conducive to awakening?

Post by Sönam »

Guy wrote:Hi Sonam,

Can you please sum what you just posted in layman's terms? I don't get it...

With Metta,

Guy
It tells how nirvana and samsara appear ...

Sönam
no hope ... no fear
PeterB
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Re: What is conducive to awakening?

Post by PeterB »

According to the kind of Mahayana view which is not shared by large numbers of those who have joined a THERAVADA forum.
Starting with the idea of " primordial purity ".
The Buddha is far far more radical.
He started with the idea of primordial ignorance.
Sonam we 21 st century Theravadins have not chosen the Theravada by an accident of birth, or in ignorance of the teachings of the Mahayana. We have chosen the Theravada after much thought and discussion and seeking because we accept that it most truly represents the actual teachings of the Buddha.
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Guy
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Re: What is conducive to awakening?

Post by Guy »

Hi Sonam,

My understanding is that Nibbana literally means "extinguish" and is not a thing which "appears". So for something to "Nibbana" is for that thing to, in a way, "disappear". Or so it "appears" to me...

With Metta,

Guy
Four types of letting go:

1) Giving; expecting nothing back in return
2) Throwing things away
3) Contentment; wanting to be here, not wanting to be anywhere else
4) "Teflon Mind"; having a mind which doesn't accumulate things

- Ajahn Brahm
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