What is conducive to awakening?

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Re: What is conducive to awakening?

Postby PeterB » Mon Mar 29, 2010 6:36 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Sönam wrote:, that is the Buddha nature that we all possess, just it is obstructed by our kleshas.
The problem is possessing things.

Well I am afraid that i have lost mine. In fact I dont recall ever having had one. Was I too far down the queue when they were given out ?
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Re: What is conducive to awakening?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Mar 29, 2010 6:46 pm

PeterB wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Sönam wrote:, that is the Buddha nature that we all possess, just it is obstructed by our kleshas.
The problem is possessing things.

Well I am afraid that i have lost mine. In fact I dont recall ever having had one. Was I too far down the queue when they were given out ?
When I was a Catholic I used to possess an immortal soul which, in its natural state, was pure but it got all messed up than thanks to Adam and Eve wanting to know more than they should. But not being Catholic anymore, thanks be to gawd, I no longer have such a thing. Being Buddhist, it is a matter of letting go, which is easier said than done, given that I seem to assume I possess things. Why would the Buddha teach us that we possess something which cannot be found and the idea of which needs to be let go?

Dogen wisely equated buddhanature with impermanence. Nothing to possess there and there is certainly a lot of impermanence going on, but why complicate things with such unneeded notions as buddhanature?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: What is conducive to awakening?

Postby bodom » Mon Mar 29, 2010 7:01 pm

PeterB wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Sönam wrote:, that is the Buddha nature that we all possess, just it is obstructed by our kleshas.
The problem is possessing things.

Well I am afraid that i have lost mine. In fact I dont recall ever having had one. Was I too far down the queue when they were given out ?


:jumping:

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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Re: What is conducive to awakening?

Postby Sönam » Mon Mar 29, 2010 7:23 pm

Possessing was a short cut, you are right nothing is possessed by no one ...

"The primordial purity of the original basis transcends the extremes of existence and non-existence, and it is the great transcending of the objects of conception and expression. As the essence of the basis is primordially pure, it transcends the extreme of existence, etarnalism, and it is not established as the phenomena of things or characteristics. As the nature of the basis is spontaneously accomplished, it transcends the extreme of non-existence, nihilism, and it is present as the purity, the ultimate nature of emptiness clarity, as the nature of the primordial Buddha, as the state of changeless ultimate body, as non-existent either as samsara or nirvana, and as the self-arisen great intrinsic wisdom which is present from primordial time like space.

Having broken the shell of the ceaselessness of the changeless intrinsic wisdom, the primordial basis of the originally pure inner ultimate sphere, by the flow of the energy/air of primordial wisdom, the self-appearances of the intrinsic awareness flash out from the basis as the "eight spontaneously accomplished doors". When the appearances spontaneously arise from the inner clarity as the outer clarity, the appearances of their essence are self-clarity, which is the space of unobstructedness, the appearances of their nature are the natural/original glow as the five lights, and the appearances of compassion are the aspect of providing the cloudness sky-like space. This is the arising of the appearances of the basis from the basis.

When the appearances of the basis arise, phenomenal existents arise as the lights and bodies. It is called the appearances of everything as the spontaneously accomplished field. ... from their power of compassion of that field arise the door aspects of samsara, like dreams.

At the very movement of the arising of the intrinsic awareness from the basis, "the eight spontaneous appearances of the basis" arise naturally. At that moment, by not apprehending those appearances as others and by realizing them as the natural glow/self radiance with a pure mind, the movements of the intrinsic awareness cease in themselves. At the first movement, by realizing the self-essence of the self-appearances, the realization of the true meaning develops ... At the second movement, the delusions are dispelled and the perfection of primordial wisdom develops. That is the development of the basis itself as the result of enlightenment. ...

Through the aspect of not realizing the essence of "the appearances of the basis" themselves as they are, one becomes distracted into the delusions ..."

This is a teaching corresponding to my answer ... but I may understand that it would be difficult for you to accept it.
Therefore, except if there is a constructive answer, I would considere the discussion as having an end there.

Sönam
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Re: What is conducive to awakening?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Mar 29, 2010 7:37 pm

Sönam wrote:Possessing was a short cut, you are right nothing is possessed by no one ...
All very unnecessarily complicated and does sound a bit atman-ish in the process.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: What is conducive to awakening?

Postby Guy » Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:46 pm

Hi Sonam,

Can you please sum what you just posted in layman's terms? I don't get it...

With Metta,

Guy
Four types of letting go:

1) Giving; expecting nothing back in return
2) Throwing things away
3) Contentment; wanting to be here, not wanting to be anywhere else
4) "Teflon Mind"; having a mind which doesn't accumulate things

- Ajahn Brahm
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Re: What is conducive to awakening?

Postby ground » Tue Mar 30, 2010 4:23 am

"Awakening" perhaps is too indefinite and therefore this term may be conducive to speculation.
Why not simply say "What is conducive to cessation of dukkha?"

Kind regards
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Re: What is conducive to awakening?

Postby Sönam » Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:02 am

Guy wrote:Hi Sonam,

Can you please sum what you just posted in layman's terms? I don't get it...

With Metta,

Guy


It tells how nirvana and samsara appear ...

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Re: What is conducive to awakening?

Postby PeterB » Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:06 am

According to the kind of Mahayana view which is not shared by large numbers of those who have joined a THERAVADA forum.
Starting with the idea of " primordial purity ".
The Buddha is far far more radical.
He started with the idea of primordial ignorance.
Sonam we 21 st century Theravadins have not chosen the Theravada by an accident of birth, or in ignorance of the teachings of the Mahayana. We have chosen the Theravada after much thought and discussion and seeking because we accept that it most truly represents the actual teachings of the Buddha.
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Re: What is conducive to awakening?

Postby Guy » Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:26 am

Hi Sonam,

My understanding is that Nibbana literally means "extinguish" and is not a thing which "appears". So for something to "Nibbana" is for that thing to, in a way, "disappear". Or so it "appears" to me...

With Metta,

Guy
Four types of letting go:

1) Giving; expecting nothing back in return
2) Throwing things away
3) Contentment; wanting to be here, not wanting to be anywhere else
4) "Teflon Mind"; having a mind which doesn't accumulate things

- Ajahn Brahm
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Re: What is conducive to awakening?

Postby Sönam » Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:16 am

Guy wrote:Hi Sonam,

My understanding is that Nibbana literally means "extinguish" and is not a thing which "appears". So for something to "Nibbana" is for that thing to, in a way, "disappear". Or so it "appears" to me...

With Metta,

Guy


nirvana like samsara is a conditionned state, therefore it appears !

Sönam
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Re: What is conducive to awakening?

Postby Sönam » Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:22 am

PeterB wrote:According to the kind of Mahayana view which is not shared by large numbers of those who have joined a THERAVADA forum.
Starting with the idea of " primordial purity ".
The Buddha is far far more radical.
He started with the idea of primordial ignorance.
Sonam we 21 st century Theravadins have not chosen the Theravada by an accident of birth, or in ignorance of the teachings of the Mahayana. We have chosen the Theravada after much thought and discussion and seeking because we accept that it most truly represents the actual teachings of the Buddha.


this is a point of view, and I do not imagine you could think otherwise ... others think differently.

Ignorance is also a conditionned state, it's not intrinsic, it i original purity, otherwise it could not be any Bouddha, Dharma and so on ... If all starts from ignorance, all would have stay in ignorance ... ignorance can only produce ignorance. Only purity can produces purity.

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Re: What is conducive to awakening?

Postby Guy » Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:24 am

Hi Sonam,

Maybe the "Nibbana" I am speaking about and the "Nirvana" you are speaking about are two different concepts with different implications.

With Metta,

Guy
Four types of letting go:

1) Giving; expecting nothing back in return
2) Throwing things away
3) Contentment; wanting to be here, not wanting to be anywhere else
4) "Teflon Mind"; having a mind which doesn't accumulate things

- Ajahn Brahm
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Re: What is conducive to awakening?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:53 am

Sönam wrote:
Ignorance is also a conditionned state, it's not intrinsic, it i original purity, otherwise it could not be any Bouddha, Dharma and so on ... If all starts from ignorance, all would have stay in ignorance ... ignorance can only produce ignorance. Only purity can produces purity.
If that were true, it would mean that ignorance and purity were self-existent thingies. It is certainly not what the Buddha taught.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: What is conducive to awakening?

Postby Sönam » Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:14 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Sönam wrote:
Ignorance is also a conditionned state, it's not intrinsic, it i original purity, otherwise it could not be any Bouddha, Dharma and so on ... If all starts from ignorance, all would have stay in ignorance ... ignorance can only produce ignorance. Only purity can produces purity.
If that were true, it would mean that ignorance and purity were self-existent thingies. It is certainly not what the Buddha taught.


It is what the Buddha taught in the scriptures of the third turn, the basis of beings.
The basis is the primordial purity, free from expression and concepts, it has a threefold nature, promordially pure essence, spontaneously accomplished natue, and omnipresent compassion. If one does not realize them to be self-appearances when they arise, then one is associated with unenlightenments and distracted and trapped into the distinctions between samsara and nirvana. If, when they arise, one realizes them to be self-apparances, no distraction will occur, and the appearances will dissolve into the primordial purity. That is the attainment of primordial Buddhahood.

... but I know this is, here, a non-discussion point ! :smile:

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Re: What is conducive to awakening?

Postby PeterB » Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:23 am

So with respect, why discuss it here Sonam ?
You chose of your own free will to join a Theravadin forum.
You were and are, very welcome.
But I would suggest that you find some means of finding common ground, because simply introducing Mahayana/Vajrayana doctrine into the various debates will inevitably end in disagreement.
There is a sister forum to this one called Dharma Wheel.
It exists to promote debate about Mahayana ideas.
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Re: What is conducive to awakening?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:40 am

Sönam wrote:It is what the Buddha taught in the scriptures of the third turn, the basis of beings.
It what some have constructed as way to try to explain and justify a much later set of notions. I'll go with the Buddha's teachings.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: What is conducive to awakening?

Postby Sönam » Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:49 am

PeterB wrote:So with respect, why discuss it here Sonam ?
You chose of your own free will to join a Theravadin forum.
You were and are, very welcome.
But I would suggest that you find some means of finding common ground, because simply introducing Mahayana/Vajrayana doctrine into the various debates will inevitably end in disagreement.
There is a sister forum to this one called Dharma Wheel.
It exists to promote debate about Mahayana ideas.


You are right Peter ... and in the mean time I've joigned the Dharma Wheel version. It's just that I have many friend in this version of the forum ... and we have been used to share some part of the same forum, so we could exchange points of view. I admit it's not the case here.
Sorry then ...
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Re: What is conducive to awakening?

Postby PeterB » Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:56 am

Its not quite as simple as that Sonam. I am sure that I speak for many when I say that you are most welcome here.
But concepts like "Buddha Nature" " Primordial Purity " and the like are unlikely to go unchallenged or unexamined on any Theravadin forum.
After all if we accepted those concepts as pertaining to the reality of things we would be, or would still be, practising a form of the Mahayana..

:anjali:
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Re: What is conducive to awakening?

Postby acinteyyo » Tue Mar 30, 2010 12:12 pm

Sönam wrote:nirvana like samsara is a conditionned state, therefore it appears !
Sönam

Hi Sönam,

in the Nibbana Sutta (Ud 8.3) The Buddha expresses nibbana this way (emphasis added):
There is, bhikkhus, a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned. If, bhikkhus, there were no not-born, not-brought-to-being, not-made, not-conditioned, no escape would be discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned. But since there is a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned, therefore an escape is discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned.

nibbana is a not-conditioned dhamma. because there is a not-conditioned dhamma (nibbana), escape from the conditioned dhamma (samsara) is possible. nibbana itself does not appear, such a term does not apply. but certainly the attainment of nibbana can be realised, because the attainment is conditioned, the attainment depends on causes. it is important to not confuse that.

best wishes, acinteyyo
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Api cāhaṃ, āvuso, imasmiṃyeva byāmamatte kaḷevare, sasaññimhi samanake lokañca paññāpemi lokasamudayañca lokanirodhañca lokanirodhagāminiñca paṭipadan. (AN4.45)

:anjali:
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