What is conducive to awakening?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Sönam
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Re: What is conducive to awakening?

Post by Sönam »

Guy wrote:Hi Sonam,

My understanding is that Nibbana literally means "extinguish" and is not a thing which "appears". So for something to "Nibbana" is for that thing to, in a way, "disappear". Or so it "appears" to me...

With Metta,

Guy
nirvana like samsara is a conditionned state, therefore it appears !

Sönam
no hope ... no fear
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Sönam
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Re: What is conducive to awakening?

Post by Sönam »

PeterB wrote:According to the kind of Mahayana view which is not shared by large numbers of those who have joined a THERAVADA forum.
Starting with the idea of " primordial purity ".
The Buddha is far far more radical.
He started with the idea of primordial ignorance.
Sonam we 21 st century Theravadins have not chosen the Theravada by an accident of birth, or in ignorance of the teachings of the Mahayana. We have chosen the Theravada after much thought and discussion and seeking because we accept that it most truly represents the actual teachings of the Buddha.
this is a point of view, and I do not imagine you could think otherwise ... others think differently.

Ignorance is also a conditionned state, it's not intrinsic, it i original purity, otherwise it could not be any Bouddha, Dharma and so on ... If all starts from ignorance, all would have stay in ignorance ... ignorance can only produce ignorance. Only purity can produces purity.

Sönam
no hope ... no fear
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Guy
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Re: What is conducive to awakening?

Post by Guy »

Hi Sonam,

Maybe the "Nibbana" I am speaking about and the "Nirvana" you are speaking about are two different concepts with different implications.

With Metta,

Guy
Four types of letting go:

1) Giving; expecting nothing back in return
2) Throwing things away
3) Contentment; wanting to be here, not wanting to be anywhere else
4) "Teflon Mind"; having a mind which doesn't accumulate things

- Ajahn Brahm
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tiltbillings
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Re: What is conducive to awakening?

Post by tiltbillings »

Sönam wrote:
Ignorance is also a conditionned state, it's not intrinsic, it i original purity, otherwise it could not be any Bouddha, Dharma and so on ... If all starts from ignorance, all would have stay in ignorance ... ignorance can only produce ignorance. Only purity can produces purity.
If that were true, it would mean that ignorance and purity were self-existent thingies. It is certainly not what the Buddha taught.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Sönam
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Re: What is conducive to awakening?

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tiltbillings wrote:
Sönam wrote:
Ignorance is also a conditionned state, it's not intrinsic, it i original purity, otherwise it could not be any Bouddha, Dharma and so on ... If all starts from ignorance, all would have stay in ignorance ... ignorance can only produce ignorance. Only purity can produces purity.
If that were true, it would mean that ignorance and purity were self-existent thingies. It is certainly not what the Buddha taught.
It is what the Buddha taught in the scriptures of the third turn, the basis of beings.
The basis is the primordial purity, free from expression and concepts, it has a threefold nature, promordially pure essence, spontaneously accomplished natue, and omnipresent compassion. If one does not realize them to be self-appearances when they arise, then one is associated with unenlightenments and distracted and trapped into the distinctions between samsara and nirvana. If, when they arise, one realizes them to be self-apparances, no distraction will occur, and the appearances will dissolve into the primordial purity. That is the attainment of primordial Buddhahood.

... but I know this is, here, a non-discussion point ! :smile:

Sönam
no hope ... no fear
PeterB
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Re: What is conducive to awakening?

Post by PeterB »

So with respect, why discuss it here Sonam ?
You chose of your own free will to join a Theravadin forum.
You were and are, very welcome.
But I would suggest that you find some means of finding common ground, because simply introducing Mahayana/Vajrayana doctrine into the various debates will inevitably end in disagreement.
There is a sister forum to this one called Dharma Wheel.
It exists to promote debate about Mahayana ideas.
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tiltbillings
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Re: What is conducive to awakening?

Post by tiltbillings »

Sönam wrote:It is what the Buddha taught in the scriptures of the third turn, the basis of beings.
It what some have constructed as way to try to explain and justify a much later set of notions. I'll go with the Buddha's teachings.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Sönam
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Re: What is conducive to awakening?

Post by Sönam »

PeterB wrote:So with respect, why discuss it here Sonam ?
You chose of your own free will to join a Theravadin forum.
You were and are, very welcome.
But I would suggest that you find some means of finding common ground, because simply introducing Mahayana/Vajrayana doctrine into the various debates will inevitably end in disagreement.
There is a sister forum to this one called Dharma Wheel.
It exists to promote debate about Mahayana ideas.
You are right Peter ... and in the mean time I've joigned the Dharma Wheel version. It's just that I have many friend in this version of the forum ... and we have been used to share some part of the same forum, so we could exchange points of view. I admit it's not the case here.
Sorry then ...
Sönam
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PeterB
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Re: What is conducive to awakening?

Post by PeterB »

Its not quite as simple as that Sonam. I am sure that I speak for many when I say that you are most welcome here.
But concepts like "Buddha Nature" " Primordial Purity " and the like are unlikely to go unchallenged or unexamined on any Theravadin forum.
After all if we accepted those concepts as pertaining to the reality of things we would be, or would still be, practising a form of the Mahayana..

:anjali:
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acinteyyo
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Re: What is conducive to awakening?

Post by acinteyyo »

Sönam wrote: nirvana like samsara is a conditionned state, therefore it appears !
Sönam
Hi Sönam,

in the Nibbana Sutta (Ud 8.3) The Buddha expresses nibbana this way (emphasis added):
There is, bhikkhus, a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned. If, bhikkhus, there were no not-born, not-brought-to-being, not-made, not-conditioned, no escape would be discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned. But since there is a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned, therefore an escape is discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned.
nibbana is a not-conditioned dhamma. because there is a not-conditioned dhamma (nibbana), escape from the conditioned dhamma (samsara) is possible. nibbana itself does not appear, such a term does not apply. but certainly the attainment of nibbana can be realised, because the attainment is conditioned, the attainment depends on causes. it is important to not confuse that.

best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
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Nibbida
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Re: What is conducive to awakening?

Post by Nibbida »

Dan74 wrote:A striking example that came up recently in a sutta where the Buddha taught the monks meditation on the repulsiveness of the body, went into a retreat and upon returning discovered that quite a few had committed suicide. The solution? Back to mindfulness of the breath.
Whoops!

Any idea which sutta that is?

Thanks.
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Dan74
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Re: What is conducive to awakening?

Post by Dan74 »

Nibbida wrote:
Dan74 wrote:A striking example that came up recently in a sutta where the Buddha taught the monks meditation on the repulsiveness of the body, went into a retreat and upon returning discovered that quite a few had committed suicide. The solution? Back to mindfulness of the breath.
Whoops!

Any idea which sutta that is?

Thanks.
I can't seem to find it. :shrug:

Perhaps some (more) knowledgeable members can help?

Until then treat this as unreliable info (my memory has been known to be dodgy. Apologies, if this is the case.)
_/|\_
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retrofuturist
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Re: What is conducive to awakening?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Dan,
Dan74 wrote:Until then treat this as unreliable info (my memory has been known to be dodgy. Apologies, if this is the case.)
No, it's good. Your synopsis is accurate.

I can't find the sutta just at the moment, but I recall it's towards the end of either the Majjhima or Samyutta Nikayas.

It's often cited as an counter-example to the Buddha's alleged omniscience (the range of which is debatable).

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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bodom
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Re: What is conducive to awakening?

Post by bodom »

Nibbida wrote:
Dan74 wrote:A striking example that came up recently in a sutta where the Buddha taught the monks meditation on the repulsiveness of the body, went into a retreat and upon returning discovered that quite a few had committed suicide. The solution? Back to mindfulness of the breath.
Whoops!

Any idea which sutta that is?

Thanks.
Vesali Sutta: At Vesali SN 54.9
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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