E-Sangha

A place to discuss casual topics amongst spiritual friends.
User avatar
hrtbeat7
Posts: 18
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:44 am
Location: Paradise
Contact:

Re: E-Sangha

Post by hrtbeat7 »

Esangha is perfect, Dhamawheel is perfect.
This is all perfect, that is all perfect.
From the perfect comes the perfect,
and only the perfect remains.

:namaste:
User avatar
genkaku
Posts: 416
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:14 pm
Location: Northampton, Mass. U.S.A.
Contact:

Re: E-Sangha

Post by genkaku »

hrtbeat7 wrote:Esangha is perfect, Dhamawheel is perfect.
This is all perfect, that is all perfect.
From the perfect comes the perfect,
and only the perfect remains.

:namaste:
Now all we gotta do is flush the joker who says so, :)
User avatar
hrtbeat7
Posts: 18
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:44 am
Location: Paradise
Contact:

Re: E-Sangha

Post by hrtbeat7 »

genkaku wrote:
hrtbeat7 wrote:Esangha is perfect, Dhamawheel is perfect.
This is all perfect, that is all perfect.
From the perfect comes the perfect,
and only the perfect remains.

:namaste:
Now all we gotta do is flush the joker who says so, :)
That would be perfect!

:hello:
davcuts
Posts: 72
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:03 am
Location: Asheville, North Carolina

Re: E-Sangha

Post by davcuts »

Does anyone know who is behind this website?

http://www.e-sangha.info/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I for one don't feel they deserve this. If I had to guess it might be the tradition I used to practice with. I'm glad e-Sangha won't allow certain traditions to spread their propaganda on there. I don't know what took place at the Soto Zen forum, but I know all to well about one tradition that is banned on e-Sangha. If that tradition was allowed to post on there all it would do is cause a lot of disharmony in the group. What I don't understand is why are some threads closed when they have nothing to do with their TOS. It seems most of the threads I post in are closed or deleted altogether. I don't feel they are targeting me in the least, but some topics seem to be off limits. It wasn't always like that. I still love e-Sangha and will always be grateful to them. They where there for me in the worst times of my life. Sadly though I believe if someone who was in my situation where to go there for help now, most of their post would be removed. Perhaps this has to do with the lawsuit. They are now afraid of offending certain groups because they might be taken to court. If that's the case I can understand better why a lot of topics are off limits.

Take care,
David
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: E-Sangha

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings everyone,

I am really grateful for the existence of E-Sangha.

I came across E-Sangha after only having been Buddhist for a month. At the time I was pretty adamant about being non-sectarian - I didn't even know what Theravada was when I joined. As it turned out though, my views and perspectives and understandings of the Dhamma were aligned with that of the Pali Canon, so Theravada became my tradition of choice. Somewhere along the way, the moderators and administrators figured I seemed to know what I was talking about, so I was made a General Moderator and one month later, a Global Moderator, after it was seen how active I was across nearly the whole board. This shift from member to moderator allowed me an insight into what happens behind the scenes and what is required to keep a forum in good shape. For anyone who has not been a moderator you would not believe how much effort was required to keep out the genuine troublemakers, crazies and cultists. Even when they would be banned, many of them would not take no for an answer, and try several means to surreptitiously regain access to E-Sangha.

Being a moderator was a very rewarding experience for me because I got to play a role in keeping the board functioning well and serving the Buddhist community, in addition to meeting some truly wonderful people and trying to help out the absolute beginners. Actually, because E-Sangha is the biggest English language Buddhist board, it does attract all the beginners, so there is an endless stream of them walking through the door. With all these beginners coming in, and with all the troublemakers, crazies and cultists still poking around the edges looking for people to confuse, convert and insult, it was deemed necessary to tighten up the policies regarding Wrong View, so the Terms Of Service slowly changed to include a small list of Dhammic non-negotiables, rules of compliance for monastics (to prevent imposters using status as leverage) and what kind of advice was permitted in the Beginners Forum.

This sense of responsibility towards the beginners though, had its casualties. Members of some traditions felt marginalized by the policies and with backs to the wall, would often fight, either straight up or passive-aggressively, against the restrictions and against those seen to be closing the walls in on them. Often the beginners themselves became casualties of their own questions or preliminary beliefs as they were deemed to go against the grain of the acceptable normative Dhamma. I think many beginners and potential Buddhists walked out the door, disgruntled about Buddhism, never to return to E-Sangha and possibly never to return the Dhamma at all. To say any of the above was anyone's fault would be wrong. It would be far more accurate to say that different perspectives, different ideas and values, and the increasing stakes at hand, meant that a certain consolidation and consistency of method was deemed to be required, moving forward.

As time and incidents rolled on, I feel a certain "us and them" mentality crept in across much of the board... staff vs members, sect vs sect as so on. I myself felt marginalised on occasion when I would try to help beginners come to an appropriate perspective on key, and often tricky Dhammic issues, generally aiming to guide them with exactly the same style, logic, and respect for the audience that the Buddha used in the suttas of the Pali Canon (e.g. MN 60, AN 3.65). However, this was perceived as skirting around the edges and going too light on the enforcement of certain rules.

I started to feel at this point as if E-Sangha and myself were drawing apart, so when it was time to leave my moderating post in a couple of months, after the initial shock I felt quite OK about it all. Just as two people in a partnership can grow apart and not be compatible any longer, so it was for me and E-Sangha. Again, nobody's fault... that's simply how things go sometimes, isn't it? That is the truth of anatta and anicca in action for you!

Part of what helped make me feel OK about it all was the opportunity provided by David to be an administrator here at Dhamma Wheel... and to him and the other moderators I feel very thankful. I had began to think for a while that there was audience enough for a specialised Theravada Buddhist forum and if the first month here has been anything to go by, I think my suspicions have been confirmed.

"Back in the day" before every man and his dog had access to the Internet, there needed to be a central hub for Dhamma discussion on the Internet because if there were too many forums, none of them would get sufficient traffic to establish a critical mass. E-Sangha became like the first city in the new electronic online colony - offering protection, shelter, a place to chat, and a place to come together as a Buddhist community. In time that city expanded, people had new and different ideas, and the population had risen enough that such ideas for new cities on the electronic frontier became viable. As these new electronic communities are increasingly established, I think it's important to look back to that big, original city and be thankful that it existed. Without it, and without the tireless efforts of staff, owner, and members alike, it would have been a complete wasteland, just like the majority of unmoderated discussion boards on the Internet that were also vying for members at the time. Without E-Sangha, and without the learnings from that experience, and without the communities established, I don't think the Dhamma Wheel would have established critical mass, and I don't think there would have been a ready-made community of Zen Buddhists required to get the forthcoming Zen Forum International started either. We have a lot to be thankful for... hence our Terms Of Service and our refusal to allow people to use Dhamma Wheel as a platform to badmouth E-Sangha.

I still consider myself a "friend of E-Sangha" and drop by when time permits and I would encourage anyone who has strong emotions about the site to just reflect on what it has provided by way of service and opportunities to the online Buddhist community, both in the past and now today. No one will force you to go there and no one will force you to stay. Given its size and given the prevalence of other valid options, E-Sangha no longer needs to be "everything to everyone" and even if it wanted to, I don't think it could. E-Sangha offers a valuable service, particularly I think to absolute beginners who can adjust quickly to the laws of the land.

Please don't let unwholesome thoughts about E-Sangha consume your mind and lead you to unhappy destinations.

:buddha2:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
jcsuperstar
Posts: 1915
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:15 am
Location: alaska
Contact:

Re: E-Sangha

Post by jcsuperstar »

retrofuturist wrote: Please don't let unwholesome thoughts about E-Sangha consume your mind and lead you to unhappy destinations.
man that would be the worst wouldnt it? to die mad at esangha and have that determine your rebirth... doomed to wander the burning hells of internet trolldom... :coffee:
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22395
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: E-Sangha

Post by Ceisiwr »

One thing that seems to come accross on reading some posts on here and also on e-sangha itself is that people appear to be getting to involved in the site itself forgetting that it is just a friendly discussion about dhamma.

I dont think anyone on e-sangha has set out to intentionaly offend people/groups although it does on some occasions come accross as such.

Any website, organisation etc that offers a platform to discuss and spread dhamma in a peaceful and friendly way is doing a great service. I think troubles occur when, as stated above, people become to attached.

Thats just my take on things anyway :smile:

:namaste:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
Placid-pool
Posts: 92
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:09 am

Re: E-Sangha

Post by Placid-pool »

I'm sure that ESangha provides a useful and necessary forum for discussion ... well, before this one was created - I just got utterly and totally fed up with the pervs that joined purely to air their obssessions and then tried to argue from a Dhamma point of view when someone asked them politely to stow it.

I know that all fora attract their fair share of nits but that one seemed to get more than theirs of people who needed serious psychiatric help.

And I agree - the best solution, if one is unhappy is to walk. Walk away and don't discuss it any more. The people who are left are happy there, the people who leave are happier - end of problem.

A similar situation happened on one of the bigger Pagan fora - many of us upped and offed. But there are still people around, four years down the line bad-mouthing everyone who has anything to do with it on any forum they can find ....... unhealthy and unhelpful.

Now let's all have a nice cup of tea and wish them well - they're welcome to a bit of cake any time too. I am totally non-sectarian in my cake-sharing :toast:
User avatar
jcsuperstar
Posts: 1915
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:15 am
Location: alaska
Contact:

Re: E-Sangha

Post by jcsuperstar »

i think its just a matter of mixing traditions and thinking theres not going to be problems, as if all buddhist traditions have gotten along just fine up until the internet.

dhammawheel is a bit different from esangha as it has a focus of sorts that while open to all traditions theres an expectation that theravada isnt going to be subjected to being "real buddhisms" kid brother. we dont have to deal with hinayana this or provisional buddhism that.

there was once a question posed by a member over there as to why other sects where dismissive of their sect, and i replied that all the members of their sect i had ever met never knew any teachings of buddhism outside of that sect. and i got back basicly that there was no need to learn "provisional buddhism" i didnt go back to respond, but i was left thinking, there's the answer to your question as to why other buddhist dont think to highly of your sect...
and this atitude is found pretty much in all sects,

theres seems to be this attitude that theravada is the basics or foundation of mahayana, but doesnt that imply that it's what you learn first? so all those on the mahayana path should be not only well aquainted with the doctrines of theravada but at least to the level of stream enterer, as that would at least meant that they had the "basics" down before moving on right?

i dont know.. people like to have the last word, and people like to be right, and sometimes its just too much to just leave things be. and the internet lets people say things to other people they may never say in real life. which is a double edged sword
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
User avatar
hrtbeat7
Posts: 18
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:44 am
Location: Paradise
Contact:

Re: E-Sangha

Post by hrtbeat7 »

retrofuturist wrote: E-Sangha offers a valuable service, particularly I think to absolute beginners who can adjust quickly to the laws of the land.
Great post, Thanks!

:namaste:
davcuts
Posts: 72
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:03 am
Location: Asheville, North Carolina

Re: E-Sangha

Post by davcuts »

I hope I didn't come across as badmouthing e-Sangha. I have no desire to leave. It just feels different. I suppose I am attached to it. It's the only Sangha I've got so it means a lot to me. I'm sad to see people leave, and yes that does come from attachment. I'm also a moderator for a group and I know it's not always easy. I've had to ban people, mainly trolls. I can understand why some people have been removed from e-Sangha. Why some had to be banned is still a mystery to me. Ultimately I have to respect e-Sangha's policies. While I do that I'll try to work on my attachment. :cry:
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22395
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: E-Sangha

Post by Ceisiwr »

jcsuperstar wrote:i think its just a matter of mixing traditions and thinking theres not going to be problems, as if all buddhist traditions have gotten along just fine up until the internet.

dhammawheel is a bit different from esangha as it has a focus of sorts that while open to all traditions theres an expectation that theravada isnt going to be subjected to being "real buddhisms" kid brother. we dont have to deal with hinayana this or provisional buddhism that.

there was once a question posed by a member over there as to why other sects where dismissive of their sect, and i replied that all the members of their sect i had ever met never knew any teachings of buddhism outside of that sect. and i got back basicly that there was no need to learn "provisional buddhism" i didnt go back to respond, but i was left thinking, there's the answer to your question as to why other buddhist dont think to highly of your sect...
and this atitude is found pretty much in all sects,

theres seems to be this attitude that theravada is the basics or foundation of mahayana, but doesnt that imply that it's what you learn first? so all those on the mahayana path should be not only well aquainted with the doctrines of theravada but at least to the level of stream enterer, as that would at least meant that they had the "basics" down before moving on right?

i dont know.. people like to have the last word, and people like to be right, and sometimes its just too much to just leave things be. and the internet lets people say things to other people they may never say in real life. which is a double edged sword
:goodpost:


I do agree that it seems most people dont examin the other sects enough, it is important to get a good knowledge of all thats being offered. Myself I will admit that I know very little about mahayana (something that im working on) so I do try to keep an open mind. Trouble is all beginners have craving so it seems natural for them to fall into a trap of grasping at their particular teachings and being dismissive of the rest. Most seem to shake this as there practice goes on but i think some unfortunately stay with it.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
kc2dpt
Posts: 957
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:48 pm

Re: E-Sangha

Post by kc2dpt »

genkaku wrote:Elevating or suppressing the one in order to eradicate the other is a fool's errand.
Are you familiar with the Buddha's teaching on Right Effort?
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
User avatar
appicchato
Posts: 1602
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:47 am
Location: Bridge on the River Kwae

Re: E-Sangha

Post by appicchato »

:thumbsup:
Dharmajim
Posts: 18
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:19 pm

Re: E-Sangha

Post by Dharmajim »

There is an aspect to the history of e-sangha that I think should be taken into account. Many of the initial participants at e-sangha had bitter experience with previous online inter-Buddhist forums. I am thinking particularly of Tricycle, which used to operate an online forum that in some ways was structured along the lines of e-sangha. I was a participant in the Tricycle Forum, so I am speaking from firsthand knowledge.

The Tricycle Forum collapsed due to Tricycle's inability to effectively moderate trolls who became more and more aggressive. Some of their posts bordered on the threatening. My recollection is that at least one person was actually threatened. Sarcasm and name calling became pervasive. When it reached that stage Tricycle closed it down, and I don't blame them. It takes a lot of time and commitment to moderate such a forum and achieving the right balance is a difficult challenge. That is why, when one small Tibetan sect was banned from e-sangha that, in my experience, did not deserve it, I did not protest. I felt that I understood the motivation, which was not to have a repeat of what happened at Tricycle (and some other early online inter-Buddhist groups; for example there was a very large, many thousands, inter-Buddhist group at MSN groups which collapsed for similar reasons).

Understanding this background has helped me to comprehend some of the decisions that were made even when I didn't agree with them. I hope this is of some assistance.

Sincerely,

Jim
Locked