E-Sangha

A place to discuss casual topics amongst spiritual friends.
teacup_bo
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Re: E-Sangha

Post by teacup_bo »

genkaku wrote: I may have missed the point -- not unusual -- but I was trying to suggest that the 'good' -- however beautifully wrapped -- and the 'bad' -- however disgustingly portrayed -- come as a single package. So the upshot is, for my money, to investigate the 'good' with as much care as anyone might bring to the 'bad' ... and not be shy about it. Elevating or suppressing the one in order to eradicate the other is a fool's errand.

Or anyway, that's my take.
:buddha1:

What genkaku is pointing to is entirely within the sensibilities of the Dhamma masters.

"The teaching of Buddhism is about giving up evil and practicing good. Then, when evil is given up and goodness is established, we must let go of both good and evil."

"The mind of one who practices is the same; it doesn't run away anywhere, it stays right there. Good, evil, happiness, and unhappiness, right and wrong arise, and he knows them all. The meditator simply knows them, they don't enter his mind. That is, he has no clinging. He is simply the experiencer. To say he simply experiences is our common language. In the language of Dhamma we say he lets his mind follow the Middle Way."

Luang Por Chah
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retrofuturist
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Re: E-Sangha

Post by retrofuturist »

:hello: Hi, Bo!

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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genkaku
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Re: E-Sangha

Post by genkaku »

Peter wrote:
genkaku wrote:Elevating or suppressing the one in order to eradicate the other is a fool's errand.
Are you familiar with the Buddha's teaching on Right Effort?
Dear Peter -- Thanks very much. I was interested in the phrase, "for the sake of" -- a phrase I did not take to mean using one thing as a means of eradicating another.

But perhaps I am wrong.
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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: E-Sangha

Post by Ngawang Drolma. »

genkaku wrote:
Peter wrote:
genkaku wrote:Elevating or suppressing the one in order to eradicate the other is a fool's errand.
Are you familiar with the Buddha's teaching on Right Effort?
Dear Peter -- Thanks very much. I was interested in the phrase, "for the sake of" -- a phrase I did not take to mean using one thing as a means of eradicating another.

But perhaps I am wrong.
That was how I took it Genkaku but I seem to have a different interpretation from the other three people who have commented on it.

Lift up that which is wholesome.
Reject that which is unwholesome.

But do them both-it's not like a see-saw with one side relying on the other. It's not like you can't do both at the same time by cultivating Right Intention. They're not interdependent in that sense. Rather, develop a love for that which is wholesome, and tendency to reject that which is unwholesome without having to weigh one against the other because hopefully with practice it becomes obvious. Change the habits.

Anyhow, that's how I took it. I like my crazy way of reading things :cookoo:

As to the subject at hand, it seems that Retro really put thought into that post he wrote. Cool :ugeek:

I like e-sangha a lot and I read and post there. And when I don't write there I'm still reading usually.

Kindly,
Drolma
Last edited by Ngawang Drolma. on Sun Feb 01, 2009 2:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
teacup_bo
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Re: E-Sangha

Post by teacup_bo »

retrofuturist wrote::hello: Hi, Bo!

Metta,
Retro. :)
Hello retro - hope the heat is not too insufferable
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retrofuturist
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Re: E-Sangha

Post by retrofuturist »

Thanks Bo... it's cooled down over the last day or two back into the 30's... so back to "normal Summer".

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
teacup_bo
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Re: E-Sangha

Post by teacup_bo »

Dharmajim wrote:There is an aspect to the history of e-sangha that I think should be taken into account. Many of the initial participants at e-sangha had bitter experience with previous online inter-Buddhist forums. I am thinking particularly of Tricycle, which used to operate an online forum that in some ways was structured along the lines of e-sangha. I was a participant in the Tricycle Forum, so I am speaking from firsthand knowledge.

The Tricycle Forum collapsed due to Tricycle's inability to effectively moderate trolls who became more and more aggressive. Some of their posts bordered on the threatening. My recollection is that at least one person was actually threatened. Sarcasm and name calling became pervasive. When it reached that stage Tricycle closed it down, and I don't blame them. It takes a lot of time and commitment to moderate such a forum and achieving the right balance is a difficult challenge. That is why, when one small Tibetan sect was banned from e-sangha that, in my experience, did not deserve it, I did not protest. I felt that I understood the motivation, which was not to have a repeat of what happened at Tricycle (and some other early online inter-Buddhist groups; for example there was a very large, many thousands, inter-Buddhist group at MSN groups which collapsed for similar reasons).

Understanding this background has helped me to comprehend some of the decisions that were made even when I didn't agree with them. I hope this is of some assistance.

Sincerely,

Jim
This is a very helpful perspective, Jim. Thankyou for bringing it. I believe, in the realm of causes and conditons, this is just how things are. As we here (and in the new upcoming forums) will be 'influenced' by our experiences at E-sangha, and hence in our style and direction, so have they.

There is no single cause for anything, and whilst I find some parts of the moderation there not agreeable to me, it does not mean that E-sangha was a write off or poor even now.

In fact it is still a valuable contributor to Buddhist discussion, community and exploration.

The fact is everyone is just where they are, and I have never been guilt free in any of what has happened in our world. The fact that there are many complaints is a function of some over zealous moderation and lack of transparency, which I have disagreed with as well - and still would, but also that it is the largest board at the moment - it is hard to please everyone and the stance as taken is what it is. As Jim points out, it is not always easy to strike that balance, and the team at the helm do have a certainly cultural element (cultural as in similarity in outlook/approach). Still, they are doing what they know and that is the case for nearly all of us, I suspect.

I would not write them off completely yet. Things change and they do play a valuable - and fundamentally sound role, I believe as I said above.

And even if one does, there are now quite a plethora of Buddhist/spiritual forums around with scatterings of good practitioners around - a community which E-sangha also helped us bring together in the first place. So we are where we are - let's look ahead.

Bless E-sangha, bless the world, bless us all.
Last edited by teacup_bo on Sun Feb 01, 2009 2:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
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hrtbeat7
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Re: E-Sangha

Post by hrtbeat7 »

genkaku wrote:Elevating or suppressing the one in order to eradicate the other is a fool's errand.

I find a lot of resonance in this, from Nisargadatta Maharaj:

"Just realize that you are dreaming a dream you call the world, and stop looking for ways out. The dream is not your problem. Your problem is that you like one part of your dream and not another. Love all, or none of it, and stop complaining. "

:namaste:
teacup_bo
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Re: E-Sangha

Post by teacup_bo »

retrofuturist wrote:Thanks Bo... it's cooled down over the last day or two back into the 30's... so back to "normal Summer".

Metta,
Retro. :)
I really felt for the tennis players on the 40 day - ahh well until I saw their prize money :) Best wishes.
teacup_bo
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Re: E-Sangha

Post by teacup_bo »

hrtbeat7 wrote:
genkaku wrote:Elevating or suppressing the one in order to eradicate the other is a fool's errand.

I find a lot of resonance in this, from Nisargadatta Maharaj:

"Just realize that you are dreaming a dream you call the world, and stop looking for ways out. The dream is not your problem. Your problem is that you like one part of your dream and not another. Love all, or none of it, and stop complaining. "

:namaste:
Whilst I don't know much about dreams, I do know that the Buddha Way is not about suppression, stifling or fiddling personalities - it is a bit more "transcendent" than that if you can excuse my poor use of terminology. Thus, I found what genkaku pointed out a helpful pointer.

namaste.
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hrtbeat7
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Re: E-Sangha

Post by hrtbeat7 »

teacup_bo wrote:
hrtbeat7 wrote:
genkaku wrote:Elevating or suppressing the one in order to eradicate the other is a fool's errand.

I find a lot of resonance in this, from Nisargadatta Maharaj:

"Just realize that you are dreaming a dream you call the world, and stop looking for ways out. The dream is not your problem. Your problem is that you like one part of your dream and not another. Love all, or none of it, and stop complaining. "

:namaste:
Whilst I don't know much about dreams, I do know that the Buddha Way is not about suppression, stifling or fiddling personalities - it is a bit more "transcendent" than that if you can excuse my poor use of terminology. Thus, I found what genkaku pointed out a helpful pointer.

namaste.

Seng T'san, in addressing preferences ("Make the smallest distinction, however, and heaven and earth are set infinitely apart."), makes the same point as "Your problem is that you like one part of your dream and not another."
Genkaku's "Elevating or suppressing the one in order to eradicate the other is a fool's errand" points to the absurdity of the war within ourselves we are habitually waging, and simultaneously projecting out into all of our relationships, including of course the many manifestations we witness online, viz a viz the subject of this thead.

:namaste:

Note to Mods: how about that whistling smiley they had at the other place?
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AdvaitaJ
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Re: E-Sangha

Post by AdvaitaJ »

davcuts wrote: It just feels different. I suppose I am attached to it. It's the only Sangha I've got so it means a lot to me.
As one of the newbies who benefited a lot from E-Sangha, I am grateful and still check over there occasionally. But I think Davcuts nailed it when he said "It just feels different." To put it in terms that may be difficult for non-Americans, E-Sangha feels like New York city. It's huge, it's impersonal, it's tough, but it's got everything anyone could possibly need...except space. Dhamma Wheel, on the other hand, so far feels like a small town in California. It's spacious and open, most everybody knows everybody else, and mistakes can be made because it's in our mutual interests to all get along.

On the pragmatic side, I think a lot of my perception on E-Sangha came from the "Warn" level that showed on all my posts. I never got a "Warn" anything and absolutely never wanted to. I can't be in an area with heavily armed police without devoting a significant portion of my awareness to where "they" are and what "they" are doing despite the fact that I am an absolutely law-abiding person.
:spy:

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christopher:::
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Re: E-Sangha

Post by christopher::: »

genkaku wrote:Elevating or suppressing the one in order to eradicate the other is a fool's errand.
teacup_bo wrote:
There is no single cause for anything, and whilst I find some parts of the moderation there not agreeable to me, it does not mean that E-sangha was a write off or poor even now.

In fact it is still a valuable contributor to Buddhist discussion, community and exploration...

I would not write them off completely yet. Things change and they do play a valuable - and fundamentally sound role, I believe as I said above.

And even if one does, there are now quite a plethora of Buddhist/spiritual forums around with scatterings of good practitioners around - a community which E-sangha also helped us bring together in the first place. So we are where we are - let's look ahead.

Bless E-sangha, bless the world, bless us all.
beautiful, bo.

:bow:
hrtbeat7 wrote:

I find a lot of resonance in this, from Nisargadatta Maharaj:

"Just realize that you are dreaming a dream you call the world, and stop looking for ways out. The dream is not your problem. Your problem is that you like one part of your dream and not another. Love all, or none of it, and stop complaining. "

:namaste:

YES!

though it seems we humans frequently need the freedom to air our discontent first, allowing us to empty our minds of the uncomfortable thoughts and emotions that were spinning within, before we can stop complaining...

22 years of marriage and 2 children have led me to that conclusion, anyway.

:group:
Last edited by christopher::: on Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:09 am, edited 2 times in total.
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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hrtbeat7
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Re: E-Sangha

Post by hrtbeat7 »

AdvaitaJ wrote:I never got a "Warn" anything and absolutely never wanted to. I can't be in an area with heavily armed police without devoting a significant portion of my awareness to where "they" are and what "they" are doing despite the fact that I am an absolutely law-abiding person.
Hehe, a couple of years back I got a double warning for quoting a non-buddist source (who happened to be a well-known Advaitic sage I recently mentioned above), but now they allow me -- as long as I do it at the Tea House, although recently one of the mods changed the header there to "Shut up and Drink", which is not the way I'd host a Tea House if I wanted to keep customers, but c'est la vie, eh . . .

:namaste:
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christopher:::
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Re: E-Sangha

Post by christopher::: »

hrtbeat7 wrote:
AdvaitaJ wrote:I never got a "Warn" anything and absolutely never wanted to. I can't be in an area with heavily armed police without devoting a significant portion of my awareness to where "they" are and what "they" are doing despite the fact that I am an absolutely law-abiding person.
Hehe, a couple of years back I got a double warning for quoting a non-buddist source (who happened to be a well-known Advaitic sage I recently mentioned above), but now they allow me -- as long as I do it at the Tea House, although recently one of the mods changed the header there to "Shut up and Drink", which is not the way I'd host a Tea House if I wanted to keep customers, but c'est la vie, eh . . .

:namaste:
The warning system was problematic, i saw that early on. If you read social psychology literature there are a lot of studies on what happens when you give some the role of policeman, and others the role of the policed. It's not anyone's fault, it comes with the structure of the situation, the designation of roles in this manner.

The Stanford Prison Experiment was an extreme case, but it pointed to some of the relationship problems that can arise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_Prison_Experiment" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:spy: :cry: :jedi:
Last edited by christopher::: on Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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