Seeing Rise and Fall

Discussion of Satipatthana bhavanā and Vipassana bhavana.

Seeing Rise and Fall

Postby Alex123 » Thu Apr 01, 2010 1:40 am

Hello all,

How exactly does one "see rise and fall"?

There is the case where a monk [discerns]: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html



Patisambhidamagga:

The five aggregates are impermanent in the sense of rise and fall.[90] One who sees the rise of the five aggregates sees twenty-five characteristics.[91] One who sees the fall of the five aggregates sees twenty-five characteristics. One who sees the rise and fall of the five aggregates sees fifty characteristics.

“He sees the arising of the materiality aggregate in the sense of conditioned arising thus: (1) with the arising of ignorance there is the arising of materiality; (2) with the arising of craving …; (3) … kamma …; (4) … nutriment there is the arising of materiality; and (5) one who sees the characteristic of birth sees the arising of materiality.” Thus these five characteristics apply in respect of each of the five aggregates, but in the cases of feeling, perception, and formations, substituting “sense-impression” for “nutriment,” and in the case of consciousness, substituting “mentality-materiality” for “nutriment.”

In the case of fall, “he sees the fall of the materiality aggregate in the sense of conditioned cessation thus: (1) with the cessation of ignorance there is the cessation of materiality; (2) with the cessation of craving …; (3) … kamma …; (4) … nutriment there is the cessation of materiality; and (5) one who sees the characteristic of change sees the fall of materiality.”
http://bps.lk/bp_library/bp502s/bp502_part3.html#_edn91

(ignorance or craving or kamma or nutriment) -> Material Form (rūpa)
(ignorance or craving or kamma or contact) -> Mentality (sensation, recognition, volition).
(ignorance or craving or kamma or Mentality) -> consciousness (viññāṇa)
- Patis 55



I've also read VsM XX.93 + (on rise and fall). What does it mean to have understanding of rise & fall?

With metta,

Alex
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Re: Seeing Rise and Fall

Postby Ben » Thu Apr 01, 2010 2:10 am

Hi Alex

Just a question...
When you meditate, what is it that you are actually doing? What is it you are attending to?
I hope your answer will help me to answer you.
kind regards

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Re: Seeing Rise and Fall

Postby Alex123 » Thu Apr 01, 2010 2:31 am

Hello Ben, all,

Well we could say that the present mentality&materiality = the cessation of past mentality&materiality. When mentality&materiality ceases, the next moment there is momentary birth of new mentality&materiality.

So when a moment falls away (no longer is), the new moment is "born".


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Re: Seeing Rise and Fall

Postby Ben » Thu Apr 01, 2010 2:44 am

Hi Alex

I'm not sure that I am understanding you.
Firstly, I'm not sure whether your question relates to practice or whether it is in relation to understanding a point on doctrine.

Certainly the aggregates are rising and falling constantly. One way to look at it is that the aggregates are conglomerations of elemennts (dhatu) constantly evanescing, or particles oscillating and vibrating (becoming - unbecoming, becoming - unbecoming seemingly endlessly)
Nama and rupa are in a constant state of flux - change. All phenomena are conditioned, as those conditions change, so do the phenomena that depend on those conditions.

If I get time tonight I'll look at some references for you.

With regards to your original question - keep in mind that for many practitioners they are observing the changing nature of the phenomena that they are observing. For me, it is the anicca characteristic of vedana (sensation). In clearly comprehending the changing nature of vedana (or other phenomena), one directly observes "rise and fall".
I hope that helps.
metta

Ben
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Re: Seeing Rise and Fall

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Apr 01, 2010 3:37 am

Hi Alex,

If you mean the 4th vipassnana nana and if you are doing something related to Sayadaw Mahasi's approach then his little book on The Progress of Insight: http://aimwell.org/Books/Mahasi/Progress/progress.html may be helpful. Here is the Arising and Passing Away section: http://aimwell.org/Books/Mahasi/Progres ... ml#Arising

Daniel Ingram's collection of ways that stage may be described might also be helpful:
http://dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/d ... ing%20Away
I would not take what Daniel says as authoritative, but if you read that page it actually quite similar to what Sayadaw Mahasi describes, but in more everyday language, and with some terminology from other spiritual paths thrown into the mix.

Metta
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Re: Seeing Rise and Fall

Postby Alex123 » Thu Apr 01, 2010 2:49 pm

Ben wrote:Hi Alex

I'm not sure that I am understanding you.
Firstly, I'm not sure whether your question relates to practice or whether it is in relation to understanding a point on doctrine.

Ben


Hello Ben, MikeNz, all,

The question applies to both the practice and the doctrine. I am somewhat familiar with Goenka method that observers anicca of vedana (and by extension other 3 mental aggregates).

I've also read Mahasi's take.


The thing is that suttas seem to include the direct vision of part of D.O. , and I wonder how is that done.

It seems that even ordinary reflecting people can see rise and fall, yet they are not said to possess the vision of rise & fall or anicca (and their fetters are not uprooted). Why not?

To what extent does one need to see "rise & fall" to be said that s/he possesses the knowledge of it?


Mike, thank you for the links. I'll read what Daniel has to say.


I need to consider more this question. Maybe I have the answers and just look in the wrong places (such as too much theory & complications).


With metta,

Alex
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Re: Seeing Rise and Fall

Postby Freawaru » Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:02 pm

Hi Alex,

Alex123 wrote:
It seems that even ordinary reflecting people can see rise and fall, yet they are not said to possess the vision of rise & fall or anicca (and their fetters are not uprooted). Why not?

To what extent does one need to see "rise & fall" to be said that s/he possesses the knowledge of it?



The thing with insight is that it works on a different time scale than ordinary reflection. The objects arise and fall very fast and our ordinary awareness is too slow to catch and discern it. It is not that one should not be an ordinary person but that one has to detach from the ordinary person that one is, namely the personality, to become aware of this. The ordinary person, the personality, works on a low temporal scale, it is rather slow in wake, sometimes faster in dream, thus as long as one is identified with it one cannot see on the high temporal resolution required for insight - not to mention that it is actually that very same ordinary person, the personality, it's constituents, that is the object of insight.
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Re: Seeing Rise and Fall

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Apr 01, 2010 8:35 pm

Hi Alex,
Alex123 wrote:The thing is that suttas seem to include the direct vision of part of D.O. , and I wonder how is that done.

I'm not sure if it can be "done". The maps, such as the progress of insight, suggest that it "happens", when conditions are right.

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Re: Seeing Rise and Fall

Postby effort » Thu Apr 01, 2010 9:24 pm

arising and passing away is easy to be observed for some objects like thoughts and physical sensation in some extend, but when even we are not aware of the process of aggregates like perception ( we know they are happening but cant observe them ) noticing arising and passing away of them must be huge step.
by my understanding you have to have a good concentration and huge huge work to see arising and passing of aggregates and to be more more advanced ( almost near the goal ) to see arising and passing klapas, right?
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Re: Seeing Rise and Fall

Postby rowyourboat » Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:15 pm

Hi Alex

The knowledge of arising and passing away (udaya-vyaya nana) is arrived at (if the visuddhimagga is to be believed- and I dont see any reason why not to, in line with Mahasi sayadaw teachings) after passing the insight knowledges of nama-rupa, causality, seeing the three characteristics (anicca, dukkha, anatt) and passing revulsion (nibbida- fear of dissolution etc). Then begins the immature stage of arising and passing away. This is then superseded by vipassana upakilesa (which sounds to me like developments of samadhi, in line with the path), which in turn gives rise to mature knowledge of arising and passing away. Even though these are called 'knowledges' or insights, they may better be termed experiences, as they are stages of experiencing the same meditation object which was present at the start- but in different (more advanced) states of mind.

Revulsion, dispassion and cessation (Nibbida, viraga, nirodha ) are the commonly used terms (especially the latter two) in the suttas to denote these stages. Quick arising of stimuli from the sense based are experienced, along with a sense of not reacting to any happy or sad events in the environment. Equanmity of formations (sankhara upekkha) is another term used for the mature knowledge of arising and passing away. Cessation (nirodha) is a stage where the endings of stimuli are seen more and sometimes people get a deep sense of emptiness of themselves (bits of the body actually feels missing). This then flows into release (of stream entry).

It is best to follow a meditation method like that of Mahasi sayadaw to reach these stages- in that system it is well documented how these are reached. (or Pa Uk for that matter I suppose). As far as I know Ajhan Brahm, Goenka, Bhanthe Gunarathana dont speak of these stages of insight much.

The Buddha recommended reaching the knowledge of arising and passing away for lay people here:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

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