Buddhism based on fear/hope?

[notself]

Derrick Jensen has some interesting comments.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 7918347967" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Lazy_eye]

Having posed thirteen overlapping questions, I should at least try to answer some of them myself. I've been selfishly enjoying the discussion so far.

I sometimes feel that we (meaning, loosely, "Western Buddhists") are coming at things backwards. From what I gather, belief in cyclical rebirth predated the Buddha, and the Dhamma was a response to the problem of endlessly roiling about in samsara. Coming from a different cultural milieu, though, we are likely to be attracted to the Buddha's teachings before we come to terms with the "given" of kammic rebirth.

So in a sense we are embracing the solution without necessarily accepting the problem. Or perhaps we might be inclined to redefine the problem.

Has fear been an important motivator in your practice/decision to take refuge?

I know where some things lead and would prefer not to go there. By analogy, someone might choose not to take drugs because they are aware of the potential for suffering. So I like to think it is more of a rational choice than an unexamined emotional response.

However, maybe we are too quick to dismiss fear because we see it as something non-rational, primal, anti-modern. Modern societies have chronic anxiety problems, often rooted in a fear of not being in control. I'm not sure the way we deal with these anxieties is necessarily superior. What we label as "superstition" or "religious myth" may be an outlet for people accustomed to expressing themselves in that mode, rather than in (say) pop psychology jargon. Have to be a bit careful about our hidden assumptions.

Do you have a powerful belief in the existence of hells -- powerful enough to motivate you to make life decisions based on that fear? On the flip side, do you have a powerful belief in the existence of heavens? What is your belief based on? Did you have it before you came to Buddhism?

Lurid depictions of hell don't do it for me -- too much of an affront to my rationalist-empiricist sensibilities. In a more generalized way, though, I can accept the possibility of mind states that are miserable or blissful to a degree beyond human comprehension.

I do find myself contemplating the possibility of animal rebirth.

If you became convinced that the threat of rebirth in the lower realms is not real, how would your practice be affected (if at all)?

My first encounters with Buddhism were through sources that placed little or no emphasis on kamma, and what puzzled me at the time was the apparent lack of a logical necessity for sila. After all, if it's all just phenomena arising and passing away, there's no special reason to act ethically -- wholesome and unwholesome behavior is all water under the bridge, so why worry? In other words, there's a risk of nihilism which other parts of the dhamma are meant to counterbalance. The possibility of experiencing a pleasant/unpleasant vipaka is a kind of scaffolding which holds up Buddhist ethical principles. Now is the scaffolding necessary, or can it get kicked away at some point? I don't know...

If you have ever considered (or might consider) ordaining or otherwise renouncing worldly life, how contingent is this decision on the possibility of (literal) rebirth in the lower realms -- or the possibility of heaven? If you did not believe these are real possibilities, would there be any point to a monastic life? Would you still "give it all up" if there was no (literal) benefit to be gained in the afterlife, or would you look instead for worldly fulfillment?

Ordaining isn't a guarantee of avoiding the lower realms -- actually, there might be even greater risks for a monk or nun. The demands are tough and it might be easy to go astray and break one's vows. I'd imagine the key motivators for ordaining are intense awareness of dukkha and a correspondingly strong "calling" or vocation for the spiritual life. Perhaps those who renounce worldly pleasures do not see these as fulfilling, or they are after something beyond/higher, as baratgab suggests. The point made earlier about the ease, joy and happiness that arise from spiritual development is a very interesting one.

There is pleasure
and there is bliss.
Forego the one
for the sake of the other

True, I would be concerned if someone just up and ordained due to dread of being impaled in the avici hells. Then again, wasn't that what made such an impression on Hakuin, one of the greatest Zen masters?

[ground]

I sometimes feel that we (meaning, loosely, "Western Buddhists") are coming at things backwards. From what I gather, belief in cyclical rebirth predated the Buddha, and the Dhamma was a response to the problem of endlessly roiling about in samsara. Coming from a different cultural milieu, though, we are likely to be attracted to the Buddha's teachings before we come to terms with the "given" of kammic rebirth.

So in a sense we are embracing the solution without necessarily accepting the problem. Or perhaps we might be inclined to redefine the problem.

The (immediate) "problem" is dukkha which may be experienced and verified by valid cognition. Actually there is the need for insight but no need for metaphysics in the context of the 4 noble truths.

Kind regards

[notself]

Understanding Dukkha and Anicca are the keys to a strong practice. I have Dukkha down pat. Anicca is coming along and after I get that down there is that pesky Anatta to figure out. From all the differing opinions about what Anatta means, I think that one will take a while. The conventional self is obstinate. Rebirth doesn't directly enter into any of these three things nor does kamma.

[Thai_Theravada]

"Based on truth"

Truth is present, the present no fear or hope,
It's just happen and end.

[ando]

Hi all,
The Dalai Lama has defined a Buddhist as "one who, motivated by fear of suffering in the lower realms, takes refuge in the Triple Jewels" (my paraphrase...I don't have the specific passage in front of me just now). Elsewhere, he writes "to take refuge, two conditions must be present -- fear of rebirth in the three lower realms, and faith in the power of the objects of refuge to protect you from this threat".

I just thought I'd share a preamble written by Thanissaro Bhikkhu in this study guide that sounds rather similar to the Dalai Lama's statement:

An anthropologist once questioned an Eskimo shaman about his tribe's belief system. After putting up with the anthropologist's questions for a while, the shaman finally told him: "Look. We don't believe. We fear."

In a similar way, Buddhism starts, not with a belief, but with a fear of very present dangers.

Personally, I found Buddhism when trying to find a way to deal with life's pains. If there was any fear on my part, it was the fear of being unable to avoid the unbearable.

By the way, saw the quote about the uneducated village folk in SE Asia and thought it was funny because I am living in a village in SE Asia...

[Wind]

My motivation in Buddhism has never been out of fear but has always been to seek the Truth. Life is a great mystery and Buddhism provides the answers. I enjoy learning and enjoy developing compassion and loving-kindness to all sentient beings. It makes me happy when others are happy too. So for me, Buddhism is base on Truth, Wisdom, Freedom, and Loving-kindness.

[Nibbida]

I think that any faith that speaks about life time after life time of suffering is based upon fear.

Suffering is something we naturally fear as humans, and it is given an awful lot of weight in Buddhism. I would say definately there is a large element of fear involved.

So if Buddhism taught that at the end of your life that's it, you totally cease to exist is that something that you think would not evoke fear in people?

Fear comes from within not from outside. Two people boarding a plane at the same time, one fears crashing and/or terrorists and the other doesn't, who's fault is that?

The difference is that "end of your life and that's it" is not contingent upon what you do. The idea that choices will meet with consequences after death is a common theme in Buddhism and other religions. The main difference in Buddhism seems to be how it conceives of who/what will experience those consequences. So it could be interpreted by some as "if you do X you'll be punished by karma," (e.g. My Name Is Earl) but that seems to miss the point of the Dhamma. The Buddha said in the Kalama Sutta that if there is no hereafter, then you still lead a good life by practicing the Dhamma, and if there is a hereafter, you're doubly rewarded. That's clearly not a fear/threat-based approach.

Suffering is given a lot of weight in Buddhism (e.g. Four Noble Truths, 12 Links of DO), but I have found that a great deal of emphasis is also given to joy (piti), contentment (sukha), tranquility (passddhi) and many other positive qualities (e.g. Seven Factors of Awakening, Jhana factors). Relative disregard or unawareness of these aspects of Buddhism by Westerners has led many to mistakenly think of Buddhism as pessimistic or based on fear.

My practice is not based on fear. To the contrary, my sense of fear has been falling away steadily since I began practicing. I do avoid dangerous situations and unskillful actions as much as possible. So it's still a normal, functional way of living. But acting out of a compulsive avoidance of fear has been steadily diminishing over time. At times, it's required me to re-adjust my motivations because I realize how motivated I was by fear in the past. At work, for example, I noticed that I was no longer fearful of the consequences of not completing some task. I wondered for a moment whether this might be a problem. How would I get anything done? I quickly shifted to kindness/compasison. Rather than doing something because I'm afraid of the consequences of not doing it, I would find ways to frame each action in terms of how it might benefit others. In the end, the same tasks got completed, but the motivation had shifted. It has been a much-welcomed change.

I understand the HHDL/vajrayana view, from a practical perspective, as meaning that we can certainly conceive of unskillful actions in difficult situations (e.g. telling someone off, physically harming someone). However, we can also imagine the disastrous outcomes of those choices and know that that's something we want to avoid. In giving in to anger and acting on it, we are "reborn" in a "hell realm." You could call wishing to avoid that "fear." I would probably call it "wanting to avoid making myself miserable by making bad choices."

[ground]

Ottappa, fear of wrongdoing, has an external orientation. It is the voice of conscience that warns us of the dire consequences of moral transgression: blame and punishment by others, the painful kammic results of evil deeds, the impediment to our desire for liberation from suffering.

The Guardians of the World

"And what is the treasure of concern? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones feels concern for [the suffering that results from] bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, mental misconduct. This is called the treasure of concern.

Dhana Sutta

[Nibbida]

Fear is just something else to analyze...I have ended my suffering many times by working through the my fear. Each time more fear drops away. I will work through this latest suffering as well and I will be there for my dear brother. I will go into the hell realms and I will come back out.

Notself, thanks for sharing this. It's a powerful example and well-expressed.

My father was diagnosed with liver cancer last fall. He's doing well now, but back then we had no idea what would happen. It was an opportunity for practice second to none in my experience. I can only imagine what it must be like when the life in question is your own.

About 15 years ago, my father had another cancer scare, which turned out to not be cancer. This was before I knew much about the Dhamma. I was overcome with fear and sadness at the time. It didn't do him or me a lick of good. This time around, I was fully aware of the potential lethal outcome and the suffering that might be endured in the meantime. When fear or sadness arose, however, I had the tools to investigate them and to allow them to pass far less clinging and complications. What emerged in their place was a deeply felt sense of compassion, balanced with equanimity. It made me more capable of being caring and actively supportive than I have ever been before, especially compared to times when I was overcome with sadness and fear.

I recently found a great quote from Peace Pilgrim (1982): “Anything you cannot relinquish when it has outlived its usefulness possesses you…”

[lonewolf]

No, not really motivators in my case. Inner drive that just won't go away for good, won't let me forget it either. For a time I can get caught in something else, but the drive will not be ignored for very long. I used to consider it a nuisance, but lately we are getting along, we do what it wants to do.

[befriend]

from a theravadin view point buddha tells us to reflect on death every day, he also says its very very rare to be born into the human realm. i think that is a teaching on fear of the lower realms as a strong impetus for practice. my teacher said i should try to do as much good as i can while im a human because you never know when you will pass away. in my practice i am motivated by the fear of lower realms although it was the suffering and ennui of this life that lead me to buddhism.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

Fear is not a motivator for me. Rather, I'm goal focused...

Ironically, four and a half years later on, I'm not goal-focused at all... but fear is still not a motivator!

My view nowadays is much more like that expressed by Ajahn Munindo in...

An Invitation to Trust
http://www.saraniya.com/page/ebooks/aja ... _toc_id_10

What is Faith?

To begin with I'd like to talk not so much about what we have faith in, but what faith is. What actually is faith? We are not considering who has the 'right' faith or whether my faith is better than yours, but rather the reality of faith as a dimension of our lives.

First, how might we recognize the presence of faith? There is much that has been said about faith from an abstract perspective, that is, philosophically or theologically, but we might gain more by investigating it from an experiential perspective. In fact we lose a lot by not doing so. If direct personal experience as well as speculative thought informs our understanding then we find that we have our feet firmly on the ground. There is no need to defend our faith; rather, we find what emerges is a way for that faith to defend us, without any struggle.

If we consider this matter by exploring the functioning of faith, one of the first things we notice is that it enables trust. Remember, we are not yet saying anything about what we trust in; we are looking at the very activity of trusting. What are the consequences of trusting and not trusting? What happens if we feel unable to trust? Taking the example of relationships in our outer life, many people experience the difficulty and struggle of dealing with a damaged capacity to trust - the possibility of entering into meaningful caring relationship with others is simply not available. There are genuinely felt limitations regarding participation and co-operation.

But, thankfully, demanding as it may be, this hurt can be addressed. As it is regarding relationships with others, so it is inwardly with ourselves: it is important that we find how to enter into a relationship with ourselves wherein we are able to simply trust; not necessarily be sure, but trust.

To bring this contemplation alive, imagine swimming in the ocean. Can you recall the experience of attempting to just float on the surface? As we relax and trust, we sense that the water will support us; we don't have to hold ourselves up. Faith feels like that. We trust in it by surrendering to it and allowing it to carry us.

Metta,
Retro.