500,000 upasika ordination in Thailand. Real ordination?

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mikenz66
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Re: 500,000 upasika ordination in Thailand. Real ordination?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Cooran,
cooran wrote: What goals, other than renunciation and meditation leading towards Nibbana did the Buddha teach, particularly for monks?
I believe that that even in the Buddha's time some monks spent considerable time instructing lay people.

That certainly seems to be an expectation for Thai monks sent abroad.

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cooran
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Re: 500,000 upasika ordination in Thailand. Real ordination?

Post by cooran »

Certainlly Mike. It has always been the custom for monks to receive their meal dana and, after finishing eating before noon, to then teach and answer questions from those attending. This normally takes about an hour. The monks give the Teaching, the Lay people support the monks with food and other requisites ~ this is the reciprocity in Theravada monk/ lay relationships.

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gavesako
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Re: 500,000 upasika ordination in Thailand. Real ordination?

Post by gavesako »

With Buddhism becoming the national religion of some Asian countries, and being used by the governments for educational and other purposes, there will be a substantial number of monks who -- while keeping the minimal standard of Vinaya so as not to be criticized by society -- are not really keen on the higher goals of the brahmacariya as expounded by the Buddha. They may perform a variety of social roles, achieve social mobility through university education, and become administrators with appropriate government salary. They may stay in the monkhood for a few years or even a whole lifetime, and this is seen as a good thing by the laypeople who support the temples. The expectations of monks in Asia are not the same as in the West.
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Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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jcsuperstar
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Re: 500,000 upasika ordination in Thailand. Real ordination?

Post by jcsuperstar »

or as the abbot of one large Wat in Bangkok once told me when i was having personal issues with the actions of some monks "there are different kinds of monks"

or as my Thai wife sometimes points out and seems to be the standard Thai thinking on the matter, not all monks are expected to "act like monks".
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cooran
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Re: 500,000 upasika ordination in Thailand. Real ordination?

Post by cooran »

Worth bearing in mind when we minimise the lowering of standards for Bhikkhus from the level the Buddha taught:

'Anagatavamsa' " The Sermon of the Chronicle to be "
""'How will it occur? After my decease there will first be five disappearances. What five? The disappearance of attainment (in the Dispensation), the disappearance of proper conduct, the disappearance of learning, the disappearance of the outward form, the disappearance
of the relics. There will be these five disappearances.

'Here attainment means that for a thousand years only after the lord's complete Nibbana will monks be able to practice analytical insights. As time goes on and on these disciples of mine are nonreturners and once-returners and stream-winners. There will be no disappearance of attainment for these. But with the extinction of the last stream-winner's life, attainment will have disappeared.

..<.........>

'The disappearance of learning means that as long as there stand firm the texts with the commentaries pertaining to the word of the Buddha in the three Pitakas, for so long there will be no disappearance of learning. As time goes on and on there will be base-born kings, not Dhamma-men; (dharma) their ministers and so on will not be Dhamma-men, and consequently the inhabitants of the kingdom and so on will not be Dhamma-men. Because they are not Dhamma-men it will not rain properly. Therefore the crops will not flourish well, and in consequence the donors of requisites to the community of monks will not be able to give them the requisites. Not receiving the requisites the monks will not receive pupils. As time goes on and on learning will decay. In this decay the Great Patthana itself will decay first. In this
decay also (there will be) Yamaka, Kathavatthu, Puggalapannati, Dhatukatha, Vibhanga and Dhammasangani. When the Abhidhamma Pitaka decays the Suttanta Pitaka will decay. When the Suttantas decay the Anguttara will decay first. When it decays the Samyutta Nikaya, the Majjhima Nikaya, the Digha Nikaya and the Khuddaka-Nikaya will decay. They will simply remember the jataka together with the Vinaya Pitaka. But only the conscientious (monks) will remember the Vinaya Pitaka. As time goes on and on, being unable to
remember even the jataka, the Vessantara-jataka will decay first. When that decays the Apannaka-jataka will decay. When the jatakas decay they will remember only the Vinaya-Pitaka. As time goes on and on the Vinaya-Pitaka will decay. While a four-line stanza still continues to exist among men, there will not be a disappearance of learning.
When a king who has faith has had a purse containing a thousand (coins) placed in a golden' casket on an elephant's back, and has had the drum (of proclamation) sounded in the city up to the second or third time, to the effect that: "Whoever knows a stanza uttered by the Buddha, let him take these thousand coins together with the royal elephant"-but yet finding no one knowing a four-line stanza, the purse containing the thousand (coins) must be taken back into the palace again-then will be the disappearance of learning.
'This, Sariputta, is the disappearance of learning.

'As time goes on and on each of the last monks, carrying his robe, bowl, and tooth-pick like Jain recluses, having taken a bottle-gourd and turned it into a bowl for alms food, will wander about with it in his forearms or hands or hanging from a piece of string. As time goes on and on, thinking: 'What's the good of this yellow robe?" and cutting off a small piece of one and sticking it on his nose or ear or in his hair, he will wander about supporting wife and children by agriculture, trade and the like. .... As time goes on and on, thinking: "What's the good of this to us?", having thrown away the piece Of yellow robe, he will harry beasts and birds in the forest. At this time the outward form will have disappeared.

'This, Sariputta, is called the disappearance of the outward form. """

A short time indeed does the Buddha's sasana last.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastu ... sage/24257" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
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Re: 500,000 upasika ordination in Thailand. Real ordination?

Post by Brizzy »

cooran wrote:Worth bearing in mind when we minimise the lowering of standards for Bhikkhus from the level the Buddha taught:

'Anagatavamsa' " The Sermon of the Chronicle to be "
""'How will it occur? After my decease there will first be five disappearances. What five? The disappearance of attainment (in the Dispensation), the disappearance of proper conduct, the disappearance of learning, the disappearance of the outward form, the disappearance
of the relics. There will be these five disappearances.
................................................................................................

'This, Sariputta, is called the disappearance of the outward form. """

A short time indeed does the Buddha's sasana last.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastu ... sage/24257" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
Hi cooran

Not that I dont agree with you about a monks vinaya being of extreme importance, I think this "Apocryphal" work you cited does not lend credence to your argument. A "thousand years"? Where does this come from? are there no longer people who can gain attainments? It sounds almost mahayana in its reading.

:smile:
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Re: 500,000 upasika ordination in Thailand. Real ordination?

Post by BlackBird »

Does anyone know anything about the origins of this 'Anagatavamsa'? Doesn't seem like Buddhavacana to me.

All I can really find is this short synopsis:
This Sinhala recension of the Anagatavamsa, here translated into English for the first time, is but one of several texts forming a genre of Buddhist apocalyptic literature generated by the cult of Maitreya in South and Southeast Asia. It is a prophetic text revealing a rich religious imagination focused upon the advent of the future Buddha in a time when those who have long persevered in the religious quest will gain an opportunity to realize the highest spiritual attainment.
- http://www.exoticindiaart.com/book/details/IDC071/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

metta
Jack
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gavesako
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Re: 500,000 upasika ordination in Thailand. Real ordination?

Post by gavesako »

Such millenial references are found even earlier, for example in the later parts of the Theragatha in the verses of Parapariya. He speaks of the "final age" (pacchima-kala) in which the Dhamma disappears and urges a return to the forest:

http://books.google.com/books?id=0TMsdV ... ya&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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Re: 500,000 upasika ordination in Thailand. Real ordination?

Post by Cittasanto »

BlackBird wrote:Does anyone know anything about the origins of this 'Anagatavamsa'? Doesn't seem like Buddhavacana to me.

All I can really find is this short synopsis:
This Sinhala recension of the Anagatavamsa, here translated into English for the first time, is but one of several texts forming a genre of Buddhist apocalyptic literature generated by the cult of Maitreya in South and Southeast Asia. It is a prophetic text revealing a rich religious imagination focused upon the advent of the future Buddha in a time when those who have long persevered in the religious quest will gain an opportunity to realize the highest spiritual attainment.
- http://www.exoticindiaart.com/book/details/IDC071/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

metta
Jack
Hi Jack,
to link to the post above yours as well, I watched a program a couple of years ago about the Buddhist artefacts in the British Museum from Sri Lanka, and it was mentioned that Sri Lanka was at one time predominantly Mahayana, or Mahasangha (it was a couple of years ago) so this may of infuluenced this text?
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Re: 500,000 upasika ordination in Thailand. Real ordination?

Post by tiltbillings »

BlackBird wrote:Does anyone know anything about the origins of this 'Anagatavamsa'? Doesn't seem like Buddhavacana to me.

All I can really find is this short synopsis:
This Sinhala recension of the Anagatavamsa, here translated into English for the first time, is but one of several texts forming a genre of Buddhist apocalyptic literature generated by the cult of Maitreya in South and Southeast Asia. It is a prophetic text revealing a rich religious imagination focused upon the advent of the future Buddha in a time when those who have long persevered in the religious quest will gain an opportunity to realize the highest spiritual attainment.
- http://www.exoticindiaart.com/book/details/IDC071/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

metta
Jack
It is dated to the 14th cent CE, and it pull together a lot of late stuff not found in the suttas and obviously has a Mahayana in influence.
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Re: 500,000 upasika ordination in Thailand. Real ordination?

Post by BlackBird »

Cheers guys

metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
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