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Questions about stream-winners - Page 5 - Dhamma Wheel

Questions about stream-winners

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Brizzy

Re: Questions about stream-winners

Postby Brizzy » Thu Oct 15, 2009 2:09 am


vinasp
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Re: Questions about stream-winners

Postby vinasp » Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:19 pm

Hi Brizzy,

Thank you for your answers to my opening questions. These are good answers if one accepts the eight noble persons doctrine. This certainly predominates in DN and MN, but much less so in SN, where one finds about eleven alternative descriptions/explanations of a stream-winner. Most of these are, I believe, incompatible with the eight noble persons doctrine. Are you open minded ?

Best wishes, Vincent.

Brizzy

Re: Questions about stream-winners

Postby Brizzy » Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:02 pm


vinasp
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Re: Questions about stream-winners

Postby vinasp » Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:38 am

Hi everyone,

Here is yet more evidence that those on the noble eightfold path are still eliminating a view of self (sakkaya-ditthi), by developing the seeing of no-self. The full realisation of no-self completes the noble eightfold path by the attainment usually called becoming an arahant. The following quotations are from the Cula-Rahulovada Sutta MN 147.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's Monastery. Then, as he was alone in seclusion, this line of thinking arose in the Blessed One's awareness: "The mental qualities that ripen in release have ripened in Rahula. What if I were to lead Rahula further to the ending of the mental fermentations?"

My comment : The ending of the asava's, a way of describing how one becomes an arahant.
The Buddha asks Rahula to come with him to the Grove of the Blind for the day.

As he was sitting there, the Blessed One said to him, "What do you think, Rahula - is the eye constant or inconstant?" "Inconstant, lord."
"And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?" "Stressful, lord."
"And is it fitting to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?" "No, lord."

My comment : What is said here about the eye, is then repeated for visible objects, eye consciousness, eye-contact and whatever arises due to eye-contact such as feeling, perception, volitional-formations and consciousness.

"Seeing thus, Rahula, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with the eye, disenchanted with forms, disenchanted with consciousness at the eye, disenchanted with contact at the eye. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye as a mode of feeling, a mode of perception, a mode of fabrication, or a mode of consciousness: With that, too, he grows disenchanted.

My comment : The same is then said about the ear, nose, tongue, sense of touch and the mind.

He grows disenchanted with the intellect, disenchanted with ideas, disenchanted with consciousness at the intellect, disenchanted with contact at the intellect. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the intellect as a mode of feeling, a mode of perception, a mode of fabrication, or a mode of consciousness: With that, too, he grows disenchanted. Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is depleted, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"

That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, Ven. Rahula delighted in the Blessed One's words. And while this explanation was being given, Ven. Rahula's mind, through no clinging (not being sustained), was fully released from fermentations. And to those many thousands of devas there arose the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation."

My comment : Is it fitting to regard these things as:"This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am ?" "No, Lord." This is repeated 48 times if abridgement is not used. The teaching is that nothing should be regarded in this way. Ven. Rahula fully realises the truth of no-self, becoming an arahant as a result. What was the view of self which he still had up to that point in time ? It was sakkaya-ditthi.

Best wishes, Vincent.

Brizzy

Re: Questions about stream-winners

Postby Brizzy » Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:23 am


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Sobeh
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Re: Questions about stream-winners

Postby Sobeh » Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:25 am


Brizzy

Re: Questions about stream-winners

Postby Brizzy » Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:50 am


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Re: Questions about stream-winners

Postby Sobeh » Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:46 pm

I agree that fireworks need not apply; Sariputta attained sotapanna on hearing a pretty truncated discourse on the Dhamma. However, while not necessarily extravagant, my readings and experience suggest that sotapanna is marked by a solid conviction that is not terribly subtle.

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mikenz66
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Re: Questions about stream-winners

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:17 am


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Sobeh
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Re: Questions about stream-winners

Postby Sobeh » Sun Apr 04, 2010 7:46 am


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Re: Questions about stream-winners

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:00 am



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