Why there is no re-linking consciousness

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Element

Re: Why there is no re-linking consciousness

Post by Element »

Greetings Elaine
elaine wrote:...rebirth, right?
What rebirth? Can you please point this rebirth out to me or how I can discern it?
"Consciousness is like a seed (vinnanam bijam) for the growth of the relinking consciousness (patisandhi vinnana) and craving (tanha) is likened to the moisture or water element, which is an essential factor for its growth.
Can you please quote where the Buddha said this?
A new conditioning consciousness (abhisankhara vinnana) that conditions new becoming takes as its object kamma, a sign of kamma, or a sign of destiny at the moment of dying.
Can you please quote where the Buddha said this?
The consciousness that arises at the first moment of conception, is known as relinking consciousness, also takes as its object kamma, a sign of kamma, or a sign of destiny. The relinking consciousness is followed by the life continuum consciousness (bhavanga citta) which goes on continuously throughout life, even if there is no sense consciousness arising.
Can you please quote where the Buddha said this?
According to the Abhidhamma, relinking consciousness, life continuum consciousness, and death consciousness within a single life are all in the same category.
Oh! It is in the Abdhidhamma.
They arise as the result of one particular kamma in the past life that appeared at the moment of dying. Thus, tanha forms the root cause of the new existence or new becoming."
Oh! Rewata Dhamma said it.
Personally, I don't believe in an immediate rebirth, I believe in Bardo, although Theravadins do not believe in a Bardo.
Human beings, including Buddhists, have a tendency to believe in all sorts of different things.
But these assumptions are all just theoretical and speculative, obviously it cannot be proven by non-enlightened beings, right?
I must fully agree with you there. However, I doubt enlightened beings can prove them either.
Edit: wait, I think I just contradicted myself. The first paragraph and the last paragraph don't match! Oh well... :embarassed:
That's OK. The Buddha said in the Dhammapada:
The fool that realises his foolishness is wise to that extent.
Enjoy. :smile:

Kind regards

Element
elaine
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Re: Why there is no re-linking consciousness

Post by elaine »

Element wrote: What rebirth? Can you please point this rebirth out to me or how I can discern it?
How to discern rebirth? I can't do it!!! :spy: I think normal human beings can't, unless they have supranormal powers. I think, if you do some kind of Samatha meditation and if you get really good at it, you might be able to discern it but why waste so much time in doing these 'not so useful' meditation just to see past lives? Might as well do vipassana to gain insight for liberation. (Yea, this is all easier said than done but some things are surprising. Some people who are non-believers become really good at it in a short period of time, but some people who are believers all their life, see nothing and gain nothing from years of sittings. It's just kamma. sigh.)

Element wrote: Human beings, including Buddhists, have a tendency to believe in all sorts of different things.
You are right! There is one thing I absolutely believe in, I believe in the power of money. Almost anyone can be 'bought' for a price and No, I don't mean hiring someone to do the job. I mean, I believe that "money makes the world go round" and that can be easily proven.


:focus:
So, what's your opinion/conclusion on relinking consciousness after reading the short excerpt from Rewata's book? Probably still not convinced, eh? So, you don't believe in rebirth? (Sorry if I've made some wrong assumptions about you, I'm new to this forum).
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tiltbillings
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Re: Why there is no re-linking consciousness

Post by tiltbillings »

Element wrote:Vinnana does not concoct but citta does.
And the suttas that shows this is so?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Element

Re: Why there is no re-linking consciousness

Post by Element »

elaine wrote:How to discern rebirth? I can't do it!!! :spy: I think normal human beings can't, unless they have supranormal powers.
I think if one had supernormal powers, one would simply see mental formations and sense objects with those supernormal powers.

Venerable Dhammanando has just posted an extremely useful post about language on the Anatta thread.

This quote forms the basis of what we call Modern Theravada.
From the Manorathapūraṇī:
duve saccāni akkhāsi
sambuddho vadataṃ varo
sammutiṃ paramatthañca
tatiyaṃ nupalabbhati

The Awakened One, best of speakers,
Spoke two kinds of truths:
The conventional and the ultimate.
A third truth does not obtain.

tattha:
saṅketavacanaṃ saccaṃ
lokasammutikāraṇaṃ
paramatthavacanaṃ saccaṃ
dhammānaṃ tathalakkhaṇan ti

Therein:
The speech wherewith the world converses is true
On account of its being agreed upon by the world.
The speech which describes what is ultimate is also true,
Through characterizing dhammas as they really are.

tasmā vohārakusalassa
lokanāthassa satthuno
sammutiṃ voharantassa
musāvādo na jāyatī ti

Therefore, being skilled in common usage,
False speech does not arise in the Teacher,
Who is Lord of the World,
When he speaks according to conventions.
(Mn. i. 95)
nathan
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Re: Why there is no re-linking consciousness

Post by nathan »

Element, everyone;

You may find it challenging to consider the significant challenges to all functionalist theories of any kind for fully and accurately describing the nature of and interrelationships between what is elsewhere referred to as mentality/materiality or the mind/body.

Nama has limited usefulness.

See the two pdfs linked in the Articles section near the bottom of this page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Nagel" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Articles

1998, "Conceiving the Impossible and the Mind-Body Problem", Philosophy, vol. 73, no. 285, pp. 337-352. Online PDF

2000, "The Psychophysical Nexus", in Paul Boghossian and Christopher Peacocke (eds.) New Essays on the A Priori, Oxford: Clarendon Press, pp. 432-471. Online PDF
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Why there is no re-linking consciousness

Post by Ceisiwr »

The whole re-linking consciousness teaching comes from a misinterpretation of the the Buddhas Teaching on Dependent Origination.

Taking it as a model for rebirth it requires a re-linking consciousness but since the buddha did not teach Dependent Origination as a model of rebirth there is no re-linking consciousness in the Buddhas teachings.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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mikenz66
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Re: Why there is no re-linking consciousness

Post by mikenz66 »

Greetings clw_uk
clw_uk wrote:The whole re-linking consciousness teaching comes from a misinterpretation of the Buddhas Teaching on Dependent Origination.
So the Abhidhamma and Commentaries are based on misinterpretations of the Buddha's teaching which have persisted for over 2000 years?

Metta
Mike
Element

Re: Why there is no re-linking consciousness

Post by Element »

mikenz66 wrote:So the Abhidhamma and Commentaries are based on misinterpretations of the Buddha's teaching which have persisted for over 2000 years?
Mike

Buddha said his teaching would last 500 years. Thus, your 2,000 year number is spot on. Fortunately, the true Dhamma rebirthed last century.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Why there is no re-linking consciousness

Post by Ceisiwr »

So the Abhidhamma and Commentaries are based on misinterpretations of the Buddha's teaching which have persisted for over 2000 years?

Metta
Mike
The commentaries are not the word of the buddha they are interpretations of his teachings by later followers. The Abhidhamma was a later addition. Remeber, dont believe something just because it is scripture, this is what Lord Buddha has advised us.

Dependent Origination is about liberation from dukkha not a model for rebirth, think about why the 4 foundations of mindfulness focus your mind on abandoning delight in feeling in reguards to the aggregates.

Feeling leads to craving, clinging, becoming, birth of the self.

What is the origin of identity?
Five aggregates affected by clinging, this is because clinging leads to becoming, birth of identity, the sense of self. This is dependent Origination.

In order to stop dukkha one needs to end identity view.
In short the five aggregates effected by clinging are dukkha

The reason dependent origination was interpreted in three lives was to try and explain rebirth with Anatta. However the buddha only said rebirth Would happen not How it would happen, he never went into detail about it and he never used dependent origination to explain rebirth, thats not its intention.

:focus:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
nathan
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Re: Why there is no re-linking consciousness

Post by nathan »

There is a rebirth linking ignorance, find that and I believe you've got the sucker causing all the problems. :rofl:

It is said that in some kinds of divine or non-return type of births there is conscious knowledge of passing in one world and of re-arising in another which demonstrates a conscious continuity of a kind but there is still a complete release and re-arising of clinging again elsewhere. These are fairly conditionally specific conditions which we cannot demonstrate here, aren't they? Short of such noble accomplishments there would be ignorance of what occurs and of what one was and is, which pretty well describes us.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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mikenz66
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Re: Why there is no re-linking consciousness

Post by mikenz66 »

Element, clw_uk,
Element wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:So the Abhidhamma and Commentaries are based on misinterpretations of the Buddha's teaching which have persisted for over 2000 years?
Mike

Buddha said his teaching would last 500 years. Thus, your 2,000 year number is spot on. Fortunately, the true Dhamma rebirthed last century.
Thank you for clarifying your opinions.

Personally, I think I'll stick to my opinion, and the opinions of my teachers, for now...

Metta
Mike
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Why there is no re-linking consciousness

Post by Ceisiwr »

Thats fine to stick with what your teachers teach, i wasnt trying to tell you what you should or shouldnt believe :smile: I do really mean that, sorry if it came accross that way.

Just investigate for yourself, dont accept something first hand because it is written or because someone tells you it is a certain way or because its just traditional.


With Metta friend

:namaste:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Element

Re: Why there is no re-linking consciousness

Post by Element »

mikenz66 wrote:Personally, I think I'll stick to my opinion, and the opinions of my teachers, for now...
"My" is considered problematic in Buddhism. I'll stick to what the Buddha taught.
Monks, this Teaching so well proclaimed by me, is plain, open, explicit, free of patchwork.

MN 22
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mikenz66
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Re: Why there is no re-linking consciousness

Post by mikenz66 »

Element wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Personally, I think I'll stick to my opinion, and the opinions of my teachers, for now...
"My" is considered problematic in Buddhism. I'll stick to what the Buddha taught.
[/quote]
I agree. :popcorn:

clw_uk. I agree that we have to investigate for ourselves. That is exactly what I do. I just reach different conclusions, which happen to be closer to the standard Theravada view...

Be well,
Mike
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Why there is no re-linking consciousness

Post by Ceisiwr »

I agree that we have to investigate for ourselves. That is exactly what I do.
:namaste:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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