Rahula's gestation period

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Annapurna
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Re: Rahula's gestation period

Post by Annapurna »

gene wrote:
10 months then. I can accept that.
Caution. Ten lunar months.
A lunar month is a period of time measured in relationship to the movement of the moon. There are actually several different ways to calculate a lunar month, which means that it can vary in length depending on which system is used. Several religions use lunar months to establish their calendars, and the lunar month is also sometimes seen used to mark time in a pregnancy; a pregnancy is around 10 lunar months long.
-A
Paññāsikhara
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Re: Rahula's gestation period

Post by Paññāsikhara »

chownah wrote:I'm not surprised that this came from a Chinese source......the Chinese say that Lao Tzu was gestated for 88 years and had a long white beard at birth....and that this is why he was so wise.
chownah
I don't know if you read any of my posts above, but it is very clear that this source is originally Indic, and NOT Chinese.

The Laozi mythology actually came into place well after the Buddhists were already established in China. In particular, during the Tang dynasty. As such, it is actually historically more likely that the Indian story influenced the Chinese story of Laozi through translation of Indian Buddhist texts into Chinese, rather than the Chinese re-telling the story of Rahula in their own light.
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.
chownah
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Re: Rahula's gestation period

Post by chownah »

Paññāsikhara wrote:
chownah wrote:I'm not surprised that this came from a Chinese source......the Chinese say that Lao Tzu was gestated for 88 years and had a long white beard at birth....and that this is why he was so wise.
chownah
I don't know if you read any of my posts above, but it is very clear that this source is originally Indic, and NOT Chinese.

The Laozi mythology actually came into place well after the Buddhists were already established in China. In particular, during the Tang dynasty. As such, it is actually historically more likely that the Indian story influenced the Chinese story of Laozi through translation of Indian Buddhist texts into Chinese, rather than the Chinese re-telling the story of Rahula in their own light.
In the original post gene attributed this to a Chinese Buddhist....hence the term "Chinese source"....
You did say that there are several versions around and somehow you picked the Indic one but you never gave time lines showing the various versions and except for the Indic version you do not give geographic origins.....clearly there is a Chinese version or else gene wouldn't have heard it from a Chinese Budhist I think...but maybe I'm wrong.
Do you have any information on when it was first declared that Lao Tzu was infact the Buddha and that the reports of his writing the Tao Te Ching is meant to mean that Buddha composed the Tao Te Ching while traveling through the mountains to China?
chownah
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gene
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Re: Rahula's gestation period

Post by gene »

Just to clarify, I read that story of Rahula's long gestation story in an online transcript of a teaching from Ven Hsuan Hua, a chinese ch'an master. That happened around 2000. I have no idea if the html is still online and what was its title. The brief mention of this story was quoted during a rather lengthy discourse on a sutra IIRC.

btw I am very sure the name mentioned in the teaching is Rahula, not Sivali.

I am in the midst of absorbing the information and theories suggested. Thanks to all who offered them.

Oh. While I am happy to hear that Rahula's gestation period was relatively normal, this revelation of Sivali's six-year hiatus is perpetuating the really incredulous miracle gestation thing I was hoping to dispel.

As for the divulgment of the Buddha's other wife (what :shock:) I'll leave any query about that for later.
Why do I feel like I got a can of worms instead of the simple apple I was hoping for? ;)

Cheers
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gene
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Re: Rahula's gestation period

Post by gene »

I found it. Ven Hsuan Hua's site has changed a lot and the list of documents seems shorter. I first read the Rahula story in a html file but after typing 'Rahula' as keyword and searching all the files, there was no match.

But there is a pdf file and that contains a reference to Rahula's gestation period.

The Shurangama Sutra Vol 4

"Rahula was the Buddha’s son, but he was not conceived through sexual intercourse.
Shakyamuni Buddha was married at seventeen years old and left
the home-life at nineteen. Although he married, it was not a sexual
relationship. Before the Buddha left home, Yashodhara wanted to
have a son by him. So the Buddha pointed to her belly and she
conceived. This may sound like a myth, but this is how it is actually
recorded in the Buddhist Sutras. You may want to figure out how
she could get pregnant just by having him point at her, but you’ll
find it’s an inconceivable and ineffable state of affairs.

Rahula’s name means “Obstacle.” Rahula lived in his mother’s
womb for six years. This is another case of cause and effect. In a
former life, Rahula had plugged up a mouse-hole, and it took six
days for the mouse to gnaw out another passageway. As a result,
Rahula had to undergo the retribution of dwelling six years in his
mother’s womb."

The first paragraph is new to me. But the second one is familiar alright, only it's a mouse hole not snake. Sorry, I'm very bad when it comes to noticing animals. :x

I guess this all goes to show there are more than one source for these biographical accounts of the lives of the Buddha and his disciples.
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Re: Rahula's gestation period

Post by Paññāsikhara »

chownah wrote: In the original post gene attributed this to a Chinese Buddhist....hence the term "Chinese source"....
You did say that there are several versions around and somehow you picked the Indic one but you never gave time lines showing the various versions and except for the Indic version you do not give geographic origins.....clearly there is a Chinese version or else gene wouldn't have heard it from a Chinese Budhist I think...but maybe I'm wrong.
Do you have any information on when it was first declared that Lao Tzu was infact the Buddha and that the reports of his writing the Tao Te Ching is meant to mean that Buddha composed the Tao Te Ching while traveling through the mountains to China?
chownah
The Indic source I gave is a translation into English from a Chinese translation from Sanskrit. The Chinese story is from this very source. This was translated in 402. It's geographic origins are mainly NW india. This is where most of the Chinese get their sources from. But considering, as the footnotes show, that this story wasn't first presented in the text I cited, but is earlier, the story itself could quite likely have been there before hand. I could check the Chinese Avadana literature, but don't have the time. Likewise the Mahavastu.

The Laozi was the Buddha story comes from the later Han and Wei periods, I believe. But it gets elaborated on much later, and even the whole connection between Laozi and the Daode Jing is only clarified later. It's all quite murky stuff. The "Laozi converts the Barbarians" text and story, the more detailed version, comes in just before the Tang (c. 600) and is developed after that.
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.
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