Satipatthana sequencing

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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kc2dpt
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Re: Satipatthana sequencing

Post by kc2dpt »

retrofuturist wrote:
Peter wrote:Have you listened to Bhikkhu Bodhi's talks on this sutta from his MN class?
No, I generally don't do Dhamma MP3s as I find I never have an opportunity to listen to them... but if you think it's relevant and are able to point me towards a link, then I'll make the effort to find some time.
I don't recall if it's relevant. I just think it likely he covers your question. Probably toward the end. I'd start with the last talk and skip to the Q&A
If that is how it should be, why did the Buddha not say it to be so?
In my opinion, the suttas only mention meditation techniques in passing, not in detail. It was expected that people would get detailed instruction from each other, less experienced monks from more experienced ones.

I know some people feel the suttas are in fact complete meditation instructions. I do not agree.

Given my beliefs about this, the sutta is vague as to whether all foundations are to be practiced or just one, whether they are to be practiced in a particular order, and how they are to be practiced. I have certainly heard teachers explain one leading into the next, but that seems to me one approach of many, not the only approach.

To put it another way, I have found nothing in the sutta which shows that the foundations must be pursued one after the other and in a particular order.
- Peter

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Re: Satipatthana sequencing

Post by Jechbi »

Peter wrote:It was expected that people would get detailed instruction from each other, less experienced monks from more experienced ones.

I know some people feel the suttas are in fact complete meditation instructions. I do not agree.
:goodpost:
That's probably one reason we have pariyatti monks and pattipati monks, as well as lineages. Seems to me we can talk all we want about this sutta, but it's only going to be helpful to a degree. Beyond that, I think it's best to have someone more experienced in the actual meditation practice actually walk us through the process, step by step.
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Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Re: Satipatthana sequencing

Post by kc2dpt »

Bhikkhu Bodhi said once (in a class I attended) "The suttas are a high level view, a rough map (like directions from New York to Florida that say 'Go south'). The details (like go around the lake, go east a bit and you'll find a tunnel through that mountain, watch out for trees and thorn-bushes) will vary from practitioner to practitioner and so are deliberately left out."

"Go south" is techincally correct, but if we come to that mountain and a teacher says "Go eat a bit and you'll find a tunnel through" and we reply "The Buddha didn't say anything about going East" then perhaps we are not taking the Buddha's instructions as he intended them. :shrug:

Something tangential...

I have found most meditation teachers take whatever method has worked for them and say "This is the only right way." It is the rare teacher that says "This way has worked for me; other ways have worked for other people."
- Peter

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Re: Satipatthana sequencing

Post by zavk »

Hi Retro,
retrofuturist wrote:....I think this restrictiveness in selection of primary object is not at all what the Buddha had in mind when he expounded this most excellent sutta.

Your curiosity about such an interpretation of the sattipathanna is an entirely valid one. I'd like to share my views with the help of Analayo's Satipatthana: The Direct Path to Realization, which in my view is a very lucid and balanced study of the discourse.

In the conclusion of the book, Analayo (p. 266) pointed out that:
The Buddha once said he would be able to answer questions about satipatthana without repeating himself or exhausting his answers, even if the inquiry were to continue for a whole century.[The footnote for this sentence references 'M i 83', which is paragraph 62 of MN12.]

I've hesitated to post a response until I could find the time to reproduce the following arguments from Analayo's book. Being a lazy Sunday... here it is. I post in two parts. The following ideas (pp. 268-271) are extracted from the concluding chapter of Analayo's book where he sums up his key arguments. However, please bear in mind that the following are only the concluding remarks. To fully appreciate his arguments one should also read the 200+ preceding pages of the book where he systematically explicates the Satipatthana Sutta in relation to other suttas and commentaries. I've reproduce this short extract because they are especially pertinent to Retro's questions.

In the following two posts, I'll add comments in [parenthesis ] where necessary to contextualise his claims and bold sentences for emphasis.

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Re: Satipatthana sequencing

Post by zavk »

[Please start from previous post]

The essential features of satipatthana contemplation can also be brought out visually. In Fig 15.1 below I have attempted to illustrate the relationship between the "definition" [the early part of the sutta that goes: 'What are the four? Here, monks, in regard to the body...feelings..mind...dhammas...he abides contemplating...diligent, clearly knowing, and mindful, free from desires and discontent in regard to the world], the four satipatthanas, and the "refrain" [the part of the suttas that goes: 'In this way in regard to the body/feelings/mind/dhamma he abides contemplating internally..externally...of arising...of passing away...]. The central aspects mentioned in the "refrain" are in the centre of the figure, while the qualities listed in the "definition" are repeated in each cone. These four cones represent the satipatthanas, each of which can become the main focus of practice and lead to deep insight and realization.

Image

As the diagram indicates, undertaking satipatthana contemplations of body, feelings, mind, or dhammas requires the combination of the four qualities listed in the "definition". Such contemplation leads to the development of the four aspects of satipatthiina found in the centre of the above figure and mentioned in the "refrain" Satipatthana Sutta.

In this diagram I intend to show that each of the four satipatthana constitutes a "door" or perhaps a "stepping-stone". The contemplations included under the four satipatthanas are not ends in themselves, rather, they are only tools for developing the central aspects described in the "refrain". Whichever door or stepping-stone is used to develop insight, the main task is to employ it skilfully in order to gain a comprehensive and balanced vision of the true nature of subjective experience.

In the Salayatanavibhanga Sutta the Buddha spoke of “three satipatthanas" distinct from the practices listed in the four satipatthana scheme [The footnote references M iii 221, which is MN137]. This suggests that the contemplations described in Satipatthana Sutta do not determine the only proper and suitable ways for carrying out "satipatthana" contemplation, but only recommendations for possible applications. Thus the practice of satipatthana is not necessarily restricted to the range of objects explicitly listed in the Satipatthana Sutta.

[NB: In this respect, Peter is quite right to say that:]
Peter wrote:I know some people feel the suttas are in fact complete meditation instructions. I do not agree.


The contemplations in the Satipatthana Sutta progress from gross to subtle aspects of experience. It should be kept in mind, however, that that this discourse represents a theoretical model of satipatthana, not a case study. In actual practice, the different contemplation described in the discourse can be combined in a variety of ways and it would be a misunderstanding to take the progression in the discourse as prescribing the only possible sequence for the development of satipatthana.
Last edited by zavk on Sun Feb 01, 2009 8:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Satipatthana sequencing

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[Please start from two posts up]

The flexible interpretation of the satipatthana contemplations in actual practice can be illustrated by taking a cross section, as it were, through the direct path of satipatthana. Such a sectional view would resemble a twelve-petalled flower (see Fig 15.2 below), with the main object of contemplation (here the breath is used as an example) constituting the centre of the “flower”.

Image

From awareness of the main object of meditation, the dynamics of contemplation can at any given moment lead to any of the other satipatthana exercises, and then revert to the main object. That is, from being aware of the process of breathing, for example, awareness might turn to any other occurrence in the realm of body, feelings, mind, or dhammas which has become prominent, and then revert to the breath. Otherwise, in the event that the newly-arisen object of meditation should require sustained attention and deeper investigation, it can become the new centre of the flower, with the former object turned into one of the petals.

Any meditation practice from the four satipatthanas can serve as the main focus of insight contemplation and lead to realization. At the same time, meditations from one satipatthana can be related with those from other satipatthanas. This indicates the flexibility of the satipatthana scheme, which allows freedom for variation and combination according to the character and level of development of the meditator. Understood in this way, practising satipatthana should not be a question of practising one or another satipatthana, but of contemplating one as well as the others. In fact, during the deeper stages of the practice, when one is able to abide "independent and free from clinging to anything in the world", the practice of satipatthana progresses from any particular object or area to a more and more comprehensive form of contemplation that embraces all aspects of experience. Expressed in the terms of Fig. 15.2 it would be as if, when the sun was about to set, the twelve petals of the flower gradually came together to form a single bud. Practised in this way, satipatthana becomes an integrated four-faceted survey of one's present experience, taking into account its material, affective, and mental aspects from the perspective of the Dhamma. In this way one's present experience becomes an occasion for swift progress on the direct path to realization.
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Re: Satipatthana sequencing

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings zavk,

Thanks for taking the effort to put that together.... that was very interesting and highly relevant.

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Retro. :)
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Re: Satipatthana sequencing

Post by Cittasanto »

hi Zavk
Very interesting, I will be looking for this work
THANK-YOU
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But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
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Re: Satipatthana sequencing

Post by Cittasanto »

just looking for a page I found a little while ago, and stumbled across this which has allot of from what I can tell similare Diagrams but looks on the surface quite interesting and or relevant with what has been put
http://www.mahabodhi.org.uk/satipatthana2.2pt2.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
Element

Re: Satipatthana sequencing

Post by Element »

The satipatthana sequence is the natural sequence of the stream.
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Re: Satipatthana sequencing

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

An elaboration on Soma's earlier point, here's an extract from his translation of the commentary.

The Way of Mindfulness - Soma Thera
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... wayof.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Cattaro Satipatthana = "The Four Arousings of Mindfulness." Four in relation to classes of objects of mindfulness.

Why did the Buddha teach just Four Arousings of Mindfulness and neither more nor less? By way of what was suitable for those capable of being trained.

In regard to the pair of the dull-witted and the keen-witted minds among tamable persons of the craving type and the theorizing type, pursuing the path of quietude [samatha] or that of insight [vipassana] in the practice of meditation, the following is stated: For the dull-witted man of craving type the Arousing of Mindfulness through the contemplation of the gross physical body is the Path to Purity; for the keen-witted of this type, the subtle subject of meditation on the feeling. And for the dull-witted man of the theorizing type the Path to Purity is the Arousing of Mindfulness through a subject not too full of distinctions, namely, consciousness [citta]; for the keen-witted of this type, the subject which teems with distinctions, namely the contemplation on things of the mind — mental objects [dhammanupassana].

For the dull-witted man, pursuing quietude, the First Arousing of Mindfulness, body-contemplation, is the Path to Purity, by reason of the feasibility of getting at the mental reflex; for the keen-witted of this type, because he does not continue to stay in the coarse, the second Arousing of Mindfulness, the contemplation on feeling, is the Path to Purity.

And for the dull-witted man pursuing the path of insight, the subject of meditation without many distinctions, the contemplation on consciousness, is the Path to Purity; and for the keen-witted of this type the contemplation on mental objects which is full of distinctions.
Unsurprisingly perhaps, I think this interpretation is forced and off-target.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Satipatthana sequencing

Post by zavk »

Hi Retro,

I can see why you are uncomfortable with Soma Thera's suggestions. It does seem like he is absolutizing the the satipatthana somewhat, cleaving what is really a multi-faceted practice into self-contained units. But, for the sake of argument, I'd suggest that we can nevertheless interpret his suggestions more openly. Again, I will rely on Bhikkhu Analayo's readings.

In your earlier post, you mentioned that you are primarily taking issue with how Soma Thera insist that one starts with whatever matches one's disposition. You gave three reasons why you didn't agree with him:
retrofuturist wrote:1.) the earlier steps help sharpen the mind for the later steps
I certainly think that one needs to sharpen the mind before one can gain any deep insight. But I don't think that one needs to follow the sequence delineated in the sutta in order to sharpen the mind. As Analayo suggests with the figure of the cones, each satipatthana is capable of cultivating the same four qualities [I'll use the English terms rather than Pali] of 'diligence', 'clear knowing', 'mindfulness' and 'equanimity'. The aim of any one of the satipatthana is too lead one to the insights mention in the 'refrain' of the sutta (the bit that is repeated after each satipatthana): 'internal & external', 'arising & passing', 'knowledge & awareness', 'independent & detached'.
retrofuturist wrote:2.) Each step reveals more penetrative insight than the last
To the extent the Analayo's argument mentioned above is valid, we cannot then really say that each step leads to more penetrative insight than the last. Other than having different objects of contemplation, each satipatthana requires the same qualities and is directed towards the same insights. Analayo does concede that, 'The contemplations in the Satipatthana Sutta progress from gross to subtle aspects of experience.' But he also mentions, 'It should be kept in mind, however, that that this discourse represents a theoretical model of satipatthana, not a case study. In actual practice, the different contemplation described in the discourse can be combined in a variety of ways and it would be a misunderstanding to take the progression in the discourse as prescribing the only possible sequence for the development of satipatthana.'
retrofuturist wrote:3) I don't think the Buddha was offering them up as a platter of options, rather a cohesive program.
In light of the previous two responses, I would have to disagree with you on this point. I agree that we should be careful about treating the satipatthanas as a platter of options where we are free to 'mix-n-match'. But I think to treat as a cohesive program is to risk tying it down too tightly. Again, I find Analayo's diagram of the flower instructive. He suggested that, 'From awareness of the main object of meditation, the dynamics of contemplation can at any given moment lead to any of the other satipatthana exercises, and then revert to the main object.' This reading suggests that one does indeed need to proceed systematically by starting with one of the satipatthana--so we cannot accurately say that it is a 'platter of options.' But because the contemplation can give rise at any moment to any other satipatthana exercises, the systematic approach only applies to a certain extent, that is, the 'system' is really an open and porous one--so we cannot accurately say that is a 'cohesive program' either.
Last edited by zavk on Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Satipatthana sequencing

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What I find interesting is how Analayo points out the centrality of one 'present experience': 'In this way one's present experience becomes an occasion for swift progress on the direct path to realization.' Soma Thera appears to have this in mind when he offers the four different disposition--that one's present condition should be taken into account when approaching the satipatthana. Following Analayo's arguments, we might assume that the dim-witted or keen-witted person who begins with any one satipatthana is cultivating the same qualities, gaining the same insights and will eventually move in and out of each satipatthana, as he progresses.

Perhaps, we might question if Soma Thera is insisting too narrowly on those definitions. It seems to me that this is what you are asking. I think it is always important that we ask this about any teaching. We must certainly always be on guard against any forms of absolutism. To play the devil's advocate, I'd say that he is offering those suggestions on the basis of many years of experience and contact with different meditators--that he is attempting to be contextually sensitive. So, there is certainly some merit in his argument. But I also think that you are mounting an important argument, for we shouldn't assume that his suggestions are universally applicable.

One last point:
Analayo's reading of the satipatthana really speaks to my own experience. However, I must concede that I can't say for sure if I Analayo has indeed captured the 'essence' of practice or if I am merely projecting his ideas retrospectively to rationalise my own experience. BUT, I don't think this undecidability is a problem. For I think this is precisely how knowledge works--knowledge about any one 'thing' doesn't so much describe what is 'out there' as form, shape, and produce the very thing it purportedly 'describes'. In other words, I don't think we can insist too strongly on a subjective/objective dichotomy. Nor can we really insist on a teaching describing the dhamma more 'authentically' than others. But this is not to say that we should accept any reading of the dhamma willy-nilly. I say this because what one 'knows' shapes, forms and produces what one 'does' and vice versa. So it is important that we investigate any knowledge claim.

If this is indeed the case--that what one 'knows' shapes, forms and produces what one 'does' and vice versa--then one's 'knowledge' of the satipatthana will shape, form and produce one's 'practice' of the satipatthana, just as much as one's 'practice' of the satipatthana will shape, form and produce one's 'knowledge' of the satipatthana. To this extent, this is why our practice is enriched by debates about knowledge--indeed, this why you and I or anyone can agree to disagree.

In light of this, I'd say that the Satipatthana Sutta is as much 'a platter of options' as it is 'a cohesive program'. It is as much a 'theoretical treatise' as it is a 'meditation manual'.

:namaste:

Metta,
zavk
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Re: Satipatthana sequencing

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings zavk,

I'm still in the process of reading through the replies, but just to clarify, in that section I quoted just above (as with most of the text) Soma Thera is just directly translating the commentaries without adding his own. Other than the comments in the Introduction which I provided earlier, these are purely the views of the classical Theravada commentators.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Satipatthana sequencing

Post by zavk »

Noted, Retro. So perhaps I shouldn't have attributed those ideas directly to Soma Thera but to those who composed the commentaries who, one might assume, were writing from within their specific context of experience.

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zavk
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