meindzai wrote:Kevin - first of all you are a very patient person with folks such as me (and Retro ) and I enjoy our discussions. You absolutely get points for khanti parami.
Meindzai wrote:Well, sati also means memory. For me it's remembering, or "keeping something in mind." Such as when the Buddha exhorts us to be mindful of the body:
Absolutely. That is a more conventional use of the term. That is fine. But the distinction should also be understood, I feel, in order to dispel confusion.
Kind of amused that, out of your reverence for anatta, you tend to phrase things in passive voice, ie. "dhamma is heard and attention is payed to it wisely." Because you're trying to avoid saying "If we listen to dhamma and pay it wise attention." I get the sentiment, but to me there is still an element of intention present. We still have to listen, and we still have to pay wise attention. Until we are at least stream entrants, and even up until Arahantship, it is impossible to do anything - whether it's listen to dhamma or practice meditation, without some element of self view present.
If it is simply self-view and dosa (towards suffering) that motivate us to study and understand dhamma, then more self-view and dosa are conditioned, and not wisdom at that time. Panna, the cetasika of wisdom, however, can motivate us to study. In that case panna would understand the drawbacks of seeing things as seen and become inquisitive about how things really are. This conditions panna to arise again later (and panna arising more leads to satipatthana, and subsequently the stages of insight, and eventually to the mind turning away from conditioned dhammas and instead taking the unconditioned dhamma, namely nibbana, as it's object). Studying dhamma does not have to be motivated with self-view. Self-view doesn't arise with every citta.
The mind is very complex. What is important to understand is conditionality. Defilements have fuel. When their fuel is removed, the candle can be put out.
All the best.