Women can't become Buddhas?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Re: Women can't become Buddhas?

Postby pink_trike » Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:17 am

Heavenstorm wrote:Besides, gender equality is a rare occurrence. Rarely are females being treated as equal in the history of humans


Gender equality in premodern societies wasn't as rare as was once thought. We know know that in many premodern societies women and men had different roles and contributed differently to society but were still considered equal, including in leadership capabilities.
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---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Re: Women can't become Buddhas?

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:25 am

pink_trike wrote:
Heavenstorm wrote:Besides, gender equality is a rare occurrence. Rarely are females being treated as equal in the history of humans


Gender equality in premodern societies wasn't as rare as was once thought. We know know that in many premodern societies women and men had different roles and contributed differently to society but were still considered equal, including in leadership capabilities.


I would be interested in reading about such societies. I love history. Where would you point someone for a starting place, pink_trike?

Thanks :)
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Re: Women can't become Buddhas?

Postby Heavenstorm » Sat Jan 31, 2009 2:38 pm

pink_trike wrote:
Heavenstorm wrote:Besides, gender equality is a rare occurrence. Rarely are females being treated as equal in the history of humans


Gender equality in premodern societies wasn't as rare as was once thought. We know know that in many premodern societies women and men had different roles and contributed differently to society but were still considered equal, including in leadership capabilities.


Sorry, besides Ancient Persia, Egypt and perhaps Greece, I rarely read how women were respected in the history, especially in the medieval times in China, India, Europe and Middle East as various religions and philosophical systems located there clearly held man as being the superior gender.

What I get from this discussion thread is that the Theravada framing of a worldview is too constricting for me.


Well, this is a Theravada forum, what do you expect?

Also the literalization of a the Buddhist version of the "end times" of a Dharma ending age appears to be a mythological comfort blanket. Anyone who thinks that today there is less Dharma present in the world compared to 500 or 1000 years ago seems to be living in a fantasy world to me. Today the Dharma is flowing around the awareness of the entire planet and is certainly not "ending."


"Dharma ending age" is also widely recognized fact among the Mahayana circle. Its irony that you made a big claim about your preference of Mahayana, yet ignorant of that fact.

Dharma ending age got nothing to do with the availability of Dharma, you have no idea what you are talking about. There is a general consensus that the fruits of Dharma practice is diminishing every 500 or 1000 year. Given the comparison between the number of recognized Arahants found during the first few hundred years of Buddhism in India and those found in the present times. It is easily concluded that attaining Arahantship in this times are very difficult if not impossible. I don't think you will find any Theravadins that disagree with that.

The idea that female equality is somehow tied to the Dharma ending age and the ending of Buddha teaching in the world is to me ignorant and superstitious and just the rationalization of male Buddhists who want to keep their power and control over women and use theor rationalizations of the Suttas to keep their power. It is no better than the Catholic church using the Bible to rationalize their patriarchial power over society.


[EDIT: Aggressive ad-homonim attacks removed... there is no need for them. Retro.]
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Re: Women can't become Buddhas?

Postby Annapurna » Sat Jan 31, 2009 3:43 pm

[EDIT: Examples of perceived Wrong Speech removed... if you have objections to posts, please use the Report Post function rather than side-tracking conversation with complaints about them. Thank you. Retro.]


"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."

— SN 45.8


Five keys to right speech

"Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five?

"It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will."

— AN 5.198
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Re: Women can't become Buddhas?

Postby Heavenstorm » Sat Jan 31, 2009 6:41 pm

This thread has no need of "Dharma police" as already stated earlier,thank you very much.
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Re: Women can't become Buddhas?

Postby Ben » Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:53 pm

Dear members

Please return to topic.

Kind regards

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Re: Women can't become Buddhas?

Postby jcsuperstar » Sat Jan 31, 2009 9:07 pm

Annabel wrote:

"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."

— SN 45.8


Five keys to right speech

"Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five?

"It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will."

— AN 5.198

here lays your slipperly slope... you dont want to accept some parts of the canon cause you dont like what it says, yet youre fully willing to throw other parts at people because it helps you. now what if one were to claim those right speech parts were added by monks why didnt want free and open discussion, that it was all some ancient sri lankan conspiracy?
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Postby teacup_bo » Sun Feb 01, 2009 2:25 am

kowtaaia wrote:
Elohim wrote:... Perhaps the Buddha himself never said that women are inferior to men...


Ya think? :) Of course, the Buddha never said that. Awakening has nothing to do with gender.


Thankyou, kowtaaia.

Out of all the myths that we humans share amidst each other - for example, separation, selfishness, money - this has got to be one of the most harmful for spiritual seekers.

It is picked up and spread sometimes within Buddhist schools, with some traditions more proponents of it than others.

Still, we are fortunate to find that those who practice "well" as the Buddha taught, seem to get over their gender hangups and immature concepts like "inferiority" soon. In the meantime, there's always Fox News to add to the set of strong beliefs as well, for those that are into this sort of thing.

:hug:
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Re: Women can't become Buddhas?

Postby David N. Snyder » Sun Feb 01, 2009 5:16 am

jcsuperstar wrote:
Annabel wrote:"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."
— SN 45.8

Five keys to right speech

"Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five?

"It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will."

— AN 5.198

here lays your slipperly slope... you dont want to accept some parts of the canon cause you dont like what it says, yet youre fully willing to throw other parts at people because it helps you. now what if one were to claim those right speech parts were added by monks why didnt want free and open discussion, that it was all some ancient sri lankan conspiracy?

References to Right Speech in this thread are probably off-topic, but in my opinion it can be okay in some circumstances to use some passages from some books while not giving as much weight to others. This can be done if there is a science to it, for example, taking the early texts as the most important, see:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=530 (Chronology of the Pali Canon)

But, if there is no science to it and one just 'picks and chooses' what one likes and does not like, then that would be the so-called 'cherry-picking.'

The Anguttara, Samyutta, Digha, and Majjhima Nikayas are clearly early texts and contain much repetition throughout.
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Re: Women can't become Buddhas?

Postby Annapurna » Sun Feb 01, 2009 8:24 am

Heavenstorm wrote:This thread has no need of "Dharma police" as already stated earlier,thank you very much.


Heavenstorm,

please understand this as a plea and appeal to the best in all of us: more kindness and harmlessness with each other every day, myself included very much so.
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Re: Women can't become Buddhas?

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Feb 01, 2009 8:30 am

:offtopic:
:focus:
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Women can't become Buddhas?

Postby Annapurna » Sun Feb 01, 2009 9:03 am

Hello. Retro,

If ad hom. attacks are not scolded as off- topic, please also allow a respectful reply and explanation what was meant.

After that, you guys can discuss til the cows come home, since I am out of this thread.

Thank you.

Annabel


here lays your slipperly slope... you dont want to accept some parts of the canon cause you dont like what it says, yet youre fully willing to throw other parts at people because it helps you. now what if one were to claim those right speech parts were added by monks why didnt want free and open discussion, that it was all some ancient sri lankan conspiracy?


Hello, jcsuperstar,

I can accept most parts of the dhamma without thinking twice. They just "click".

With others, something doesn't seem to sit right with me and disturbs my peace of mind or seems to make no sense.

When I ask inconvenient questions about those parts, such as women can't be samma sambuddhas, then only, because I am struggling to understand them and hope to get patient and kind explanations.

Anybody replying to me in this manner will help and support me immensely.

I may not be happy with replies right away, so bear with me please. .... :toilet:

So thanks to you all in advance when I express myself, and thanks for all replies that I can accept with joy because they are kind and don't shame me, even when we disagree.

:namaste:

But with this thread I am done.

My questions remain, in a worse way than before.

Bye,

Annabel
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Re: Women can't become Buddhas?

Postby Element » Sun Feb 01, 2009 9:37 am

Heavenstorm wrote:It is easily concluded that attaining Arahantship in this times are very difficult if not impossible. I don't think you will find any Theravadins that disagree with that.

I disagree. I know many other Theravadins who disagree.
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Postby Element » Sun Feb 01, 2009 9:45 am

Heavenstorm wrote:As proven that its only in the Dharma ending times like now, female power will rise and surpass the guys.

Where there is material development, male power will predominate because of the need for the military. Female power will never arise again because it was female power that gave birth to materialism and the need for the military to protect it. If the modern world is destroyed in a nuclear war and humanity must begin again, female power will rise again. Just as women are required to look after young children, so are women needed to give direction to a growing world.
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Re: Women can't become Buddhas?

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Feb 01, 2009 9:52 am

Greetings,

It looks like the potential for us to discuss this matter from a Theravadin perspective has been exhausted.... hence the lack of recent posts actually related in any way to the topic at hand.

This thread will now be closed - thank you all for your participation.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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