Meditation to gain enlightenment?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
User avatar
kc2dpt
Posts: 956
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:48 pm

Re: Meditation to gain enlightenment?

Postby kc2dpt » Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:35 pm

bodom_bad_boy wrote:Im not denying the importance of studying the Buddhas words.

It sure sounds like you are. We must be careful not to turn people away from the teachings. Too many would-be-Buddhists hear words like yours, bodum, and think they do not need any instruction at all, that they can figure it all out on their own. This then becomes mere ego play.

It is important but only if you use it as a guide and not take it to be the truth itself.

I don't think anyone here has suggested otherwise.

Jechbi wrote:
bodom_bad_boy wrote:Did the Buddhas original disciples study scripture? No, they just practiced and they reached the deathless. Find a good teacher.
The very first five just heard a few words from the Buddha, and bingo, enlightenment.
:buddha1:

So according to bodum, study is unnecessary and according to Jechbi practice is also unnecessary. How lucky we are that awakening can come so easy. :twothumbsup:

We must be careful with our words. We do not want to turn people away from learning the teachings, nor do we want to turn people away from practice.
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.

User avatar
genkaku
Posts: 416
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:14 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1
Location: Northampton, Mass. U.S.A.
Contact:

Re: Meditation to gain enlightenment?

Postby genkaku » Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:57 pm

Sometimes we take pointers from scripture.

Sometimes we take pointers from practice.

The emphasis, I think, should be on the

SOMETIMES

User avatar
Ngawang Drolma.
Posts: 805
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:38 pm

Re: Meditation to gain enlightenment?

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Sat Jan 31, 2009 1:29 am

I think if there were one thing that would take us to enlightenment we would be doing it like our hair was on fire.

But as I see it, we pull from different resources and use different tools (so to speak). Many of us sort of spread our efforts around depending on where we're at on the journey :)

User avatar
Ngawang Drolma.
Posts: 805
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:38 pm

Re: Meditation to gain enlightenment?

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Sat Jan 31, 2009 1:40 am

genkaku wrote:I was thinking about this today, though from a slightly different angle. Please delete if it's too far off-topic:

Some -- perhaps a lot of -- people walk around imagining quietly, "I am not enlightened." And from there, it's a short step to wishing to be enlightened.

But the thought that crossed my mind was this: In order to know you are not enlightened, you would, of necessity, need to know what enlightenment was. And if you actually did know what enlightenment was, would it honestly be enlightenment?
Books and descriptions and angels on the head of a pin cannot adequately capture the meaning of enlightenment so ... how could anyone truthfully say they were unenlightened?

Brain teasers like this encourage me ... don't fret; just practice. :)


Hi genkaku,

I would be happy to encourage you until I'm blue in the face :heart: But have to poke at your comment a little.

I don't think we need to have experienced enlightenment to know that we're not enlightened. If we go by the standards and definition the Budddha laid out, most of us are just ordinary. And according to most traditions, enlightened beings do know they're enlightened.

That said, if we're wise enough to recognize even some of our unenlightened and afflicted thoughts and actions we might be making progress. And we're perpetuating them less after getting off the cushion then all the better!

Best,
Drolma

User avatar
Jechbi
Posts: 1268
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:38 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1
Contact:

Re: Meditation to gain enlightenment?

Postby Jechbi » Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:30 am

Peter wrote:... according to Jechbi practice is also unnecessary.

I would never say that. As I said earlier, you need eight spokes to support the wheel.
:namaste:
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.

User avatar
bodom
Posts: 4661
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Meditation to gain enlightenment?

Postby bodom » Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:56 pm

Thank you for proving my point peter. Practice equanimity, dont just read about it. Your not gonna find it on the bookshelf. Practice it right here for instance, and when you find you disagree with what others have said you will find no need to be sarcastic.

Peter wrote:So according to bodum, study is unnecessary and according to Jechbi practice is also unnecessary. How lucky we are that awakening can come so easy. :twothumbsup:


:namaste:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah

User avatar
bodom
Posts: 4661
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Meditation to gain enlightenment?

Postby bodom » Sun Feb 01, 2009 6:41 pm

Remember you don't meditate to "get" anything, but to get "rid" of things. We do it, not with desire, but with letting go. If you "want" anything, you won't find it. - Ajahn Chah

:namaste:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah

Element

Re: Meditation to gain enlightenment?

Postby Element » Sun Feb 01, 2009 9:10 pm

lppaefans wrote:...will mainly conducting mediation alone can leads one to enlightment?

In Buddhism, it is taught there are many paths to enlightenment, not only meditation.

Possibly someone knows the source of this teaching.

Meditation, recitation, teaching, hearing, discussing, reading and others can lead to enlightenment.

User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 3579
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: Meditation to gain enlightenment?

Postby clw_uk » Sun Feb 01, 2009 9:33 pm

Meditation isnt all there is. There was a story I read once that I think relates to this discussion.

There was a monk who, after hearing the dhamma from the buddha, went into the forest to practice attaing the jhanas. He spent a great deal of time trying to attain the jhanas but not matter how hard and long he practised he could not attain the jhanas. Then one day he decided to have a break and went to the river to wash. While he was there he seen a bubble in the water burst and contemplated his being as akin to the bubble bursting and at that moment he became englightened.



This is from my memory as i cant remember where i read it but this was generaly how the story went.

:namaste:
“The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised." Verses on the Faith Mind, Sengcan

User avatar
bodom
Posts: 4661
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Meditation to gain enlightenment?

Postby bodom » Sun Feb 01, 2009 9:36 pm

clw_uk wrote:Meditation isnt all there is. There was a story I read once that I think relates to this discussion.

There was a monk who, after hearing the dhamma from the buddha, went into the forest to practice attaing the jhanas. He spent a great deal of time trying to attain the jhanas but not matter how hard and long he practised he could not attain the jhanas. Then one day he decided to have a break and went to the river to wash. While he was there he seen a bubble in the water burst and contemplated his being as akin to the bubble bursting and at that moment he became englightened.



This is from my memory as i cant remember where i read it but this was generaly how the story went.

:namaste:


He was still being mindful though. Mindfulness is meditation. Meditation is not only sitting in jhana.

:namaste:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah

User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 3579
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: Meditation to gain enlightenment?

Postby clw_uk » Sun Feb 01, 2009 9:59 pm

BBB

Looking at it again your absolutely correct. I suppose i should have said it means you dont have to do sitting meditation or achieve jhanas (although these things are of great help to most)

:namaste:
“The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised." Verses on the Faith Mind, Sengcan

User avatar
bodom
Posts: 4661
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Meditation to gain enlightenment?

Postby bodom » Mon Feb 02, 2009 2:28 pm

clw_uk wrote:BBB

Looking at it again your absolutely correct. I suppose i should have said it means you dont have to do sitting meditation or achieve jhanas (although these things are of great help to most)

:namaste:


Yep you are right. They both mutually support each other. If there is no meditation off the cushion, there will be no meditation on the cushion.

:namaste:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah

rowyourboat
Posts: 1949
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1
Location: London, UK

Re: Meditation to gain enlightenment?

Postby rowyourboat » Mon Feb 02, 2009 7:31 pm

The Snake
10.8 "There are here, O monks, some foolish men who study the Teaching;9 having studied it, they do not wisely examine the purpose of those teachings. To those who do not wisely examine the purpose, these teachings will not yield insight.10 They study the Teaching only to use it for criticizing or for refuting others in disputation. They do not experience the (true) purpose11 for which they12 (ought to) study the Teaching. To them these teachings wrongly grasped, will bring harm and suffering for a long time. And why? Because of their wrong grasp of the teachings.

"Suppose, monks, a man wants a snake, looks for a snake, goes in search of a snake. He then sees a large snake, and when he is grasping its body or its tail, the snake turns back on him and bites his hand or arm or some other limb of his. And because of that he suffers death or deadly pain. And why? Because of his wrong grasp of the snake.

"Similarly, O monks, there are here some foolish men who study the Teaching; having studied it, they do not wisely examine the purpose of those teachings. To those who do not wisely examine the purpose, these teachings will not yield insight. They study the Teaching only to use it for criticizing or for refuting others in disputation. They do not experience the (true) purpose for which they (ought to) study the Teaching. To them these teachings wrongly grasped, will bring harm and suffering for a long time. And why? Because of their wrong grasp of the teachings.

11. "But there are here, O monks, some noble sons who study the Teaching;13 and having studied it, they examine wisely the purpose of those teachings. To those who wisely examine the purpose, these teachings will yield insight. They do not study the Teaching for the sake of criticizing nor for refuting others in disputation. They experience the purpose for which they study the Teaching; and to them these teachings being rightly grasped, will bring welfare and happiness for a long time. And why? Because of their right grasp of the teachings.

"Suppose, monks, a man wants a snake, looks for a snake, goes in search of a snake. He then sees a large snake, and with a forked stick he holds it firmly down. Having done so he catches it firmly by the neck. Then although the snake might entwine with (the coils of) its body that man's hand or arm or some other limb of his, still he does not on that account suffer death or deadly pain. And why not? Because of his right grasp of the snake.

"Similarly, O monks, there are here some noble sons who study the Teaching; and having learned it, they examine wisely the purpose of those teachings. To those who wisely examine the purpose, these teachings will yield insight. They do not study the Teaching for the sake of criticizing nor for refuting others in disputation. They experience the purpose for which they study the Teaching; and to them these teachings being rightly grasped, will bring welfare and happiness for a long time. And why? Because of their right grasp of the teachings.

12. "Therefore, O monks, if you know the purpose of what I have said, you should keep it in mind accordingly. But if you do not know the purpose of what I have said, you should question me about it, or else (ask) those monks who are wise.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nypo.html
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

User avatar
lppaefans
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:06 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1
Location: Singapore

Re: Meditation to gain enlightenment?

Postby lppaefans » Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:46 am

siaophengyou wrote:Dear lppaefans,

What about the Perfections or Paramis ? One may not realize the Real Happiness without enough Parami.

metta,

siaophengyou



yes, that os importnat too.

one of my good dhamma brother told me that..thans sfor reminder. :clap:

User avatar
lppaefans
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:06 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1
Location: Singapore

Re: Meditation to gain enlightenment?

Postby lppaefans » Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:51 am

bodom_bad_boy wrote:
clw_uk wrote:The scriptures are the message of the buddha, his disciples did study his word and reflect on it.

If one cannot get to a teacher then the suttas are extremely helpful to the practise.

:namaste:


They studied his word by putting into practice his word. Scriptural study is outward study. Practice is inward study.

"Do you know where it will end? Or will you just keep on studying like this? ...Or is there an end to it? ... That's okay but it's the external study, not the internal study. For the internal study you have to study these eyes, these ears, this nose, this tongue, this body and this mind. This is the real study. The study of books is just the external study, it's really hard to get it finished."

Ajahn Chah

See this thread: Practise vs suttra
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... ead#unread

Im not denying the importance of studying the Buddhas words. It is important but only if you use it as a guide and not take it to be the truth itself. I know this is cliche' but Its the finger not the moon.

:namaste:



i like your reply...

i am to it too..

able to see oneself is more imporant..

mindfulness is the tools to detect one mind running around... :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 5876
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Meditation to gain enlightenment?

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:49 pm

Element wrote:
lppaefans wrote:...will mainly conducting mediation alone can leads one to enlightment?

In Buddhism, it is taught there are many paths to enlightenment, not only meditation.

Possibly someone knows the source of this teaching.

Meditation, recitation, teaching, hearing, discussing, reading and others can lead to enlightenment.


their is only one path that the buddha Taught the noble 8-fold path, each teaching is contained therein,
there is only one book worth reading The Mind
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 14812
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Meditation to gain enlightenment?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:37 am

Greetings Manapa,

Manapa wrote:there is only one book worth reading The Mind

But how are you going to know how to read the mind, unless you learn how you're supposed to do? If the truth were that simple, it wouldn't have taken a Buddha to teach it.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)

User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 5876
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Meditation to gain enlightenment?

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:19 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Manapa,

Manapa wrote:there is only one book worth reading The Mind

But how are you going to know how to read the mind, unless you learn how you're supposed to do? If the truth were that simple, it wouldn't have taken a Buddha to teach it.

Metta,
Retro. :)


Some preliminaries are necessary, but when practising what else should be read but the mind itself?
no book can ready us for just how difficult it can be, experiment, ask the all important WHY?
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."


Return to “Theravada Meditation”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Coyote, Sam Vara and 6 guests