Differences Hinayana & Theravada Buddhism

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tiltbillings
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Re: Differences Hinayana & Theravada Buddhism

Post by tiltbillings »

Bankei wrote:I think the term Hinayana is used differently by different people.
It is more likely that hinayana acquired shades of meanings over time. It basically started out its life as a sectarian, supersessionist, triumphalist polemical term of derision directed at those who did not buy into the Mahayana vision.
To some Hinayana means any non-mahayana school such as Sarvastivada, Dharmaguptaka, Theravada etc. Theravada is only one of the Hinayana schools. Some say it is the only surviving Hinayana school, but the Mula-sarvastivada and Dharmaguptaka lineages survive to this day as all Mahayana Bhikkhu belong to one of these schools - although they may not hold the philosophical ideas of the school.
The Theravada is only a “hinayana” school only if one uses the Mahayana system of classification, but there is absolutely no objective basis or need for using such a sectarian, polemical basis of classification.

Also, one needs to distinguish between ordination lineages and doctrinal schools. While the Mula-sarvastivada and Dharmaguptaka ordination lineages still exist, the Mainstream doctrinal lineages associated with the ordination lineages are quite dead.

Keep in mind, no school of Buddhism ever called it self hinayana: the scorned, the discarded, the vile school.
Another use of Hinayana is a generic term used in some Mahayana works to despise a certain group of Buddhists. This may not actually refer to any specific schools in existent then or now.
Out side of the questionable issue that the word hinayana ”may not actually refer to any specific schools in existent then or now,” what does that tell you about those who would coin such a term and put it into the mouth of the Buddha?

The early bodhisattva sutras did not use the term hinayana. Mahayana was not contrasted in those texts with hinayana, nor did the authors of those texts see that being a bodhisttva was necessary of everyone; rather, being a bodhisattva was a select practice for the few. The use of the term hinayana and the idea that being a bodhisattva was the only real way of practice for everyone go hand-in-hand.
A for Cooran's statement by Dr Rahula Walpoha, this can't be correct. Some early Chinese translations of Mahayana works occurred around the year 150AD. Therefore Mahayana must have been in existence well before then. There were also several non-Theravada schools in Sri-Lanka as well as Mahayana schools. The Chinese Bhikkhuni lineage was said to have started from the Mahisasaka school of Sri Lanka.
"... even after its initial appearance in the public domain in the 2nd century [Mahayana] appears to have remained an extremely limited minority movement - if it remained at all - that attracted absolutely no documented public or popular support for at least two more centuries. It is again a demonstrable fact that anything even approaching popular support for the Mahayana cannot be documented until 4th/5th century AD, and even then the support is overwhelmingly monastic, not lay, donors ... although there was - as we know from Chinese translations - a large and early Mahayana literature there was no early, organized, independent, publicly supported movement that it could have belonged to." -- G. Schopen "The Inscription on the Ku.san image of Amitabha and the character of the early Mahayana in India." JIABS 10, 2 pgs 124-5.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Differences Hinayana & Theravada Buddhism

Post by tiltbillings »

Goofaholix wrote:
I would say Hinayana practice with a Mahayana spirit is also the best way to approach practice in Theravada.
I would say that Theravadin practice with Theravadin spirit is the way to go.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Differences Hinayana & Theravada Buddhism

Post by jcsuperstar »

tiltbillings wrote:
Goofaholix wrote:
I would say Hinayana practice with a Mahayana spirit is also the best way to approach practice in Theravada.
I would say that Theravadin practice with Theravadin spirit is the way to go.
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the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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bodom
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Re: Differences Hinayana & Theravada Buddhism

Post by bodom »

Goofaholix wrote:I would say Hinayana practice with a Mahayana spirit is also the best way to approach practice in Theravada.
Just curious but what would be your definition of Mahayana spirit? And what is hinayana practice? If Theravada is not hinayana why would Theravadans practice a hinayana type practice? What is hinayana practice anyway if hinayana schools are no longer existent or practiced anymore?

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Re: Differences Hinayana & Theravada Buddhism

Post by Goofaholix »

bodom wrote:
Goofaholix wrote:I would say Hinayana practice with a Mahayana spirit is also the best way to approach practice in Theravada.
Just curious but what would be your definition of Mahayana spirit? And what is hinayana practice? If Theravada is not hinayana why would Theravadans practice a hinayana type practice? What is hinayana practice anyway if hinayana schools are no longer existent or practiced anymore?

:anjali:
I think you missed my point, Hinayana is not a school it's a style or approach to practice, Theravadin students would do it for the same reason Zen students do.

In the way Suzuki Roshi uses it Hinayana practice is concerned with disciplined detailed practice, step by step adherence to a method or discipline. Anyone who has been on a Theravadin Vipassana retreat or a Zen Sesshin will know just what I'm talking about.

Mahayana spirit (or mind) is to see the big picture, big mind, to be open, to free the mind to see things from a whole different viewpoint.

This is a balanced approach to practice. Don't get hung up in this school vs that school or this doctrine vs that doctrine. If you only have method and discipline without any capacity to free your mind then you'll hit a dead end, if you have a big mind but no discipline you'll get lost.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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tiltbillings
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Re: Differences Hinayana & Theravada Buddhism

Post by tiltbillings »

Goofaholix wrote:
bodom wrote:
Goofaholix wrote:I would say Hinayana practice with a Mahayana spirit is also the best way to approach practice in Theravada.
Just curious but what would be your definition of Mahayana spirit? And what is hinayana practice? If Theravada is not hinayana why would Theravadans practice a hinayana type practice? What is hinayana practice anyway if hinayana schools are no longer existent or practiced anymore?

:anjali:
I think you missed my point, Hinayana is not a school it's a style or approach to practice, Theravadin students would do it for the same reason Zen students do.

In the way Suzuki Roshi uses it Hinayana practice is concerned with disciplined detailed practice, step by step adherence to a method or discipline. Anyone who has been on a Theravadin Vipassana retreat or a Zen Sesshin will know just what I'm talking about.

Mahayana spirit (or mind) is to see the big picture, big mind, to be open, to free the mind to see things from a whole different viewpoint.

This is a balanced approach to practice. Don't get hung up in this school vs that school or this doctrine vs that doctrine. If you only have method and discipline without any capacity to free your mind then you'll hit a dead end, if you have a big mind but no discipline you'll get lost.
I understand what you are saying, but on the other hand, it could also easily be seen as just confusing terminology that we might not really need.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Goofaholix
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Re: Differences Hinayana & Theravada Buddhism

Post by Goofaholix »

tiltbillings wrote: I understand what you are saying, but on the other hand, it could also easily be seen as just confusing terminology that we might not really need.
Actually I think the endless Hinyana vs Mahayana threads is what we might not really need. Suzuki Roshi is is a pretty highly regarded teacher, I think he knows what he's doing
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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tiltbillings
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Re: Differences Hinayana & Theravada Buddhism

Post by tiltbillings »

Goofaholix wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: I understand what you are saying, but on the other hand, it could also easily be seen as just confusing terminology that we might not really need.
Actually I think the endless Hinyana vs Mahayana threads is what we might not really need. Suzuki Roshi is is a pretty highly regarded teacher, I think he knows what he's doing
The problem is that the Mahayana stuck us with this unfortunate terminology that is confusing and divisive. I suspect there are a fair few that have taken the notion of hinayana and all its negative baggage seriously when applied to the Theravada, cutting themselves off from the Theravada because it is hinayana, lesser in scope and goal. It is worth the effort to respond to that.

As for Suzuki Roshi, that he uses hinayana in a particular context, which may be okay with that context, but it does not mean we need to use those confusing words in a way that just adds more confusion as to what they mean.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Differences Hinayana & Theravada Buddhism

Post by Mawkish1983 »

Goofaholix wrote:I think the endless Hinayana vs Mahayana threads is what we might not really need
Agreed. The search function here (and on other forums) is very powerful but underused. As and when these threads keep popping up (as they invariably will) I think it'd be better for there to just be a link to an identical thread that doubtlessly exists posted and for the thread to be closed. Why keep so many identical threads open? I don't get it.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Differences Hinayana & Theravada Buddhism

Post by tiltbillings »

Mawkish1983 wrote:
Goofaholix wrote:I think the endless Hinayana vs Mahayana threads is what we might not really need
Agreed. The search function here (and on other forums) is very powerful but underused. As and when these threads keep popping up (as they invariably will) I think it'd be better for there to just be a link to an identical thread that doubtlessly exists posted and for the thread to be closed. Why keep so many identical threads open? I don't get it.
If you would collect a list of the threads on this subject, that would help greatly. Those than can be merged, would then be merged, lessening the number threads, and having such a list, we could then direct people wondering about this issue to the appropriate thread rather than starting a new one and lessening the crankiness level of those here who get cranky about such threads. All in all it would be a noble thing for you to understake..
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Mawkish1983
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Re: Differences Hinayana & Theravada Buddhism

Post by Mawkish1983 »

tiltbillings wrote:All in all it would be a noble thing for you to understake..
'twould be much more practical for me to attempt to compile that list whilst sitting at my computer (in general I use my mobile phone for internet browsing, mainly because my PC is in a rather cold study which takes some time to warm up). I'll have much more time on Monday (my day off), so I'll have a go then. Don't get me wrong, I'm not 'cranky' about it, afterall I could just not bother viewing threads such as these :) I just don't see the point of so much repetition.

Anyway, thanks Tilt for the suggestion, I'll have a go on Monday :)
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tiltbillings
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Re: Differences Hinayana & Theravada Buddhism

Post by tiltbillings »

Mawkish1983 wrote:
Anyway, thanks Tilt for the suggestion, I'll have a go on Monday :)
No hurry and seriously, it would be appreciated.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Differences Hinayana & Theravada Buddhism

Post by Goofaholix »

tiltbillings wrote:The problem is that the Mahayana stuck us with this unfortunate terminology that is confusing and divisive. I suspect there are a fair few that have taken the notion of hinayana and all its negative baggage seriously when applied to the Theravada, cutting themselves off from the Theravada because it is hinayana, lesser in scope and goal. It is worth the effort to respond to that.

As for Suzuki Roshi, that he uses hinayana in a particular context, which may be okay with that context, but it does not mean we need to use those confusing words in a way that just adds more confusion as to what they mean.
True enough, but I think the fact that a well known Mahayana teacher calls his own style of practice "Hinayana" is evidence that they aren't all out to stick it to us and maybe the phrase wasn't just a polemic invented to beat non Mahayanists over the head with.

At the end of the day the usual touted polemic has nothing at all to do with Theravada anyway, however Suzuki Roshis meaning is useful no matter what path you're following.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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tiltbillings
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Re: Differences Hinayana & Theravada Buddhism

Post by tiltbillings »

Goofaholix wrote:
True enough, but I think the fact that a well known Mahayana teacher calls his own style of practice "Hinayana" is evidence that they aren't all out to stick it to us and maybe the phrase wasn't just a polemic invented to beat non Mahayanists over the head with.
Tibetan teachers use the term hinayana in this way quite frequently; however, even that usage is not really appropriate to the Theravada.
. . . however Suzuki Roshis meaning is useful no matter what path you're following.
It is better, it would seem, just to leave these terms aside.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
PeterB
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Re: Differences Hinayana & Theravada Buddhism

Post by PeterB »

Hear hear.
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