Metaphysics / Abhidhamma VS Life Improvement

Discussion of Abhidhamma and related Commentaries
pt1
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Re: Metaphysics / Abhidhamma VS Life Improvement

Post by pt1 »

Thanks for your thoughts tilt.
tiltbillings wrote:I would suggest, maybe, reading the essay concerning two truths linked at the bottom of my above quote.
From memory, I agree with most of the things the Professor explains there, though I probably understand some things differently than you, though of course that doesn't have to mean I'm correct.
tiltbillings wrote:I do not see the above quote saying that the paramattha-kathā is superior
Well, I agree, but I don't think that conclusion goes far enough, or rather it doesn't go in the right direction. Imo, the commentary quote is not concerned with the issue of superiority at all, but describes how the Buddha teaches. With that in mind, I find several important differences between how the Buddha teaches and how the rest of us teach/discuss Dhamma. E.g:
-The Buddha knows the abilities of others, we (usually) don't.
-The Buddha will not get confused and conceive selves, things, etc. in the terms he uses, we (usually) will.
-The Buddha has the experience of dhammas through insight, we (usually) don't. Etc.

Hence why I feel we need to be careful no matter what terminology we employ. Imo, conventional terminology is suitable in most circumstances, but when insight is discussed and especially the very fine points, I find that ultimate terminology can cut through a lot of confusion and unnecessary arguments.
tiltbillings wrote:And the paramattha terms present their own very serious problems, such as the reification of the idea of dhamma as some sort of existing things, which opens all sorts of philosophical problems.
Well, people like philosphying, though imo dhammas offer much less room for that in comparison with other conventional notions.
tiltbillings wrote:Depends upon how one chooses to define dhamma. Dhamma theory itself is a conceptual construct, no less than what we find in conventional discourse. What the Abhidhamma offers, and here I am talking about the Pitaka texts, is a refined way of talking about practice, but it is not one that is somehow more true than conventional.
I think I disagree here because again imo it's not about whether one is more true than the other, but which one is more effective in particular circumstances. While it certainly depends on people and their abilities at a particular instance, I personally find that explanations in terms of dhammas (whether in sutta or abhidhamma pitakas) cut through confusion much more effectively when it comes to insight.
tiltbillings wrote:
pt1 wrote:Hence, employing ultimate terminology might be very useful when talking about insight in particular so as to avoid confusion, even though such terminology will also essentially employ concepts. I mean, the description of moments of insight seems closer to how it really happens when it's described in ultimate, rather than in conventional terminology.
Maybe, but it is not necessary for the practice of insight, as the commentarial passage makes clear.
Again I feel this conclusion is partial, I mean, yes, we can conclude from the commentary passage that one of the two might be enough, so it could be either of the two that is not necessary. But even with such more politically-correct conclusion I feel we're still missing the point. I.e. to me it seems it's all about the actual circumstances and abilities, so in that sense I feel the ultimate terminology can help tremendously when it comes to insight in particular, because descriptions of insight experience in terms of dhammas seem to be closer to how it really happens than more conventional notions.

Best wishes
pt1
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Re: Metaphysics / Abhidhamma VS Life Improvement

Post by pt1 »

Brizzy wrote: Thanks for taking the time pt1 - everything is now clear - as mud :smile:
I think that I better withdraw from this thread before I show how ignorant I am of Abhidhammic doctrines.
I like talk about calming the mind and training in virtue and how great the Buddha was.
No worries, discussing development of virtue and tranquility is also very valuable. It took me a long time to begin to appreciate abdhidhamma - usually I just used to avoid it like plague. But when I became interested in insight, then it started to make sense. Maybe you'll find it useful as well at some point, or maybe not as tilt suggests. Either way, don't be reluctant to ask questions about abhidhamma or anything else no matter how ignorant you think you might be, questions are usually very helpful for both those who ask and those who try to answer.

Best wishes
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tiltbillings
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Re: Metaphysics / Abhidhamma VS Life Improvement

Post by tiltbillings »

pt1 wrote: I think I disagree here because again imo it's not about whether one is more true than the other, but which one is more effective in particular circumstances. While it certainly depends on people and their abilities at a particular instance, I personally find that explanations in terms of dhammas (whether in sutta or abhidhamma pitakas) cut through confusion much more effectively when it comes to insight.
I am afraid there are those (not referring to you or anyone in particular) who assume that what they think is more effective is also truer. For you and others the Abhidhamma may be more effective, but not necessarily for me or others, and that is the point of the commentary I quoted.
pt1 wrote: Again I feel this conclusion is partial, I mean, yes, we can conclude from the commentary passage that one of the two might be enough, so it could be either of the two that is not necessary. But even with such more politically-correct conclusion I feel we're still missing the point. I.e. to me it seems it's all about the actual circumstances and abilities, so in that sense I feel the ultimate terminology can help tremendously when it comes to insight in particular, because descriptions of insight experience in terms of dhammas seem to be closer to how it really happens than more conventional notions.
Having worked with the Abhidhamma with a (non-Sujin) meditation teacher, I’ll go with the suttas. Interesting we do not see in the suttas people referring to their Abhidhamma practice.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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cooran
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Re: Metaphysics / Abhidhamma VS Life Improvement

Post by cooran »

Hello Tilt,

Many people do not see that you have to be one or the other - and choose to accept the whole Tipitaka.

INTRODUCING BUDDHIST ABHIDHAMMA: Meditation and Concentration ~ by U Kyaw Min
http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... ration.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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tiltbillings
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Re: Metaphysics / Abhidhamma VS Life Improvement

Post by tiltbillings »

cooran wrote:Hello Tilt,

Many people do not see that you have to be one or the other - and choose to accept the whole Tipitaka.

INTRODUCING BUDDHIST ABHIDHAMMA: Meditation and Concentration ~ by U Kyaw Min
http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... ration.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
I am not advocating one OR the other.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
pt1
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Re: Metaphysics / Abhidhamma VS Life Improvement

Post by pt1 »

tiltbillings wrote:Interesting we do not see in the suttas people referring to their Abhidhamma practice.
Maybe that's because abhidhamma is synonymous with insight, so whenever they refer to their insight practice in the suttas, they are in fact referring to... Sorry couldn't resist :toilet:

Thanks for the discussion.

Best wishes
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tiltbillings
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Re: Metaphysics / Abhidhamma VS Life Improvement

Post by tiltbillings »

pt1 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Interesting we do not see in the suttas people referring to their Abhidhamma practice.
Maybe that's because abhidhamma is synonymous with insight, so whenever they refer to their insight practice in the suttas, they are in fact referring to... Sorry couldn't resist

Thanks for the discussion.

Best wishes
You are welcome.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
meindzai
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Re: Metaphysics / Abhidhamma VS Life Improvement

Post by meindzai »

What I've found in studying Abhidhamma, and very little at that, was that the Suttas were like "Dhamma bricks"and Abhidhamma was like "dhamma cement," and it kind of made the whole thing fit together for me. I don't take the Abhidhamma as the Buddha's words, but as teachings of people that had a LOT more wisdom than me - but who sometimes may have gotten carried away in their explanations and classifications. I realize that some peope like to build houses entirely out of cement, but that doesn't quite do it for me.

-M
Brizzy

Re: Metaphysics / Abhidhamma VS Life Improvement

Post by Brizzy »

pt1 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Interesting we do not see in the suttas people referring to their Abhidhamma practice.
Maybe that's because abhidhamma is synonymous with insight, so whenever they refer to their insight practice in the suttas, they are in fact referring to... Sorry couldn't resist :toilet:

Thanks for the discussion.

Best wishes
Great line pt1, and on a really practical note "how does one practice Abhidhamma"?

Can it be used to calm the mind or control arising anger?

How do the writers of the Abhidhamma books advise people to "practice"?

:smile:
meindzai
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Re: Metaphysics / Abhidhamma VS Life Improvement

Post by meindzai »

They didn't talk about Abhidhamma practice, per say, but the Buddha did occasionally make mention of "Higher Dhamma" in the Suttas. Just to pull a search result:
"Then again, the monk is one who desires the Dhamma, endearing in his conversation, greatly rejoicing in the higher Dhamma & higher Discipline. And the fact that he is one who desires the Dhamma, endearing in his conversation, greatly rejoicing in the higher Dhamma & higher Discipline, is a quality creating a protector."
- Natha Sutta

Actually, that's the only Sutta I found online. I know it pops up a few times in the Mahjjima Nikaya, and it seems to come up in the Vinaya:

"Endowed with five further qualities, a bhikkhu may give Acceptance, may give dependence, and a novice may be made to attend to him. He is competent to get his pupil or student to train in the training of the (bhikkhus') customs. He is competent to discipline him in the training that is basic to the celibate life; to discipline him in the higher Dhamma; to discipline him in the higher Vinaya; to pry away or to get someone else to pry away, in line with the Dhamma, a (wrong) viewpoint that has arisen. Endowed with these five qualities, a bhikkhu may give Acceptance, may give dependence, and a novice may be made to attend to him."

Can you imagine the kind of conversations that would be taking place between such disciples? What would an Arahant and a Stream entrant talk about? We might have a few examples in the canon, but I've always imagined this to be the genesis of Abhidhamma - the unheard thousands of hours of long conversations between advanced practitioners in the Buddha's original Sangha. Probably stretching on until wee hours of the morning, with no idle chatter - pure Dhamma! I guess I have quite an imagination, but to think about it is inspiring and mind-blowing.

I wouldn't propose to know exactly what the conversations were like - whether they talked about cittas and cetasikas and such. But it almost makes sense that it would be a different kind of discourse than we commonly find in the Suttas - more "granular." A stream enterer already knows about sila, guarding the sense doors, the dangers of sense pleasures, jhana, and so forth. He more than "knows" but manifests it. When we look at the attainment of Stream entery as compared to Arahantship - it is a very small gap, comparatively speaking. It could be those smallest bits of view that need to be clarified for the next breakthrough. "To get someone else to pry away, in line with the Dhamma, a (wrong) viewpoint that has arisen" as mentioned above.


-M
meindzai
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Re: Metaphysics / Abhidhamma VS Life Improvement

Post by meindzai »

Brizzy wrote:
How do the writers of the Abhidhamma books advise people to "practice"?

:smile:
Here are a few takes.

In Nina's works the general idea is that we need to learn all the different cittas and cetasikas and their characterists so that we can identify them and see them as not-self. The sentiment that arises frequently in ABHIDHAMMA IN DAILY LIFE is something to this effect:
Nama and rupa are absolute realities, in Pali: paramattha dhammas. We can experience their characteristics when they appear, no matter how we name them. Those who have developed 'insight' can experience them as they really are: impermanent and not self. The more we know different namas and rupas by experiencing their characteristics, the more we will see that 'self' is only a concept; it is not a paramattha dhamma. Nama and rupa are different types of realities. If we do not distinguish them from each other and learn the characteristic of each we will continue to take them for self. For example, hearing is nama; it has no form or shape. Hearing is different from ear-sense, but it has ear-sense as a necessary condition. The nama which hears experiences sound. Ear-sense and sound are rupas, which do not experience anything; they are entirely different from the nama which hears. If we do not learn that hearing, ear-sense and sound are realities which are altogether different from each other, we will continue to think that it is self which hears.
Another take from Ven Nyanaponika's The Abhidhamma Philosophy, is that it can gaurd against overblown meditative experiences, sometimes attributed to some kind of divine, mystical force, cosmic self, etc. After having an experience which is extremely blissful or rapturous, I think it could serve as a "reality check." I can't say it any better than he does in the section "Abhidhamma and Meditation:"
A fertile soil for the origin and persistence of beliefs and ideas about a self, soul, god or any other form of an absolute entity, is misinterpreted meditative experience occurring in devotional rapture or mystical trance. Such experience is generally interpreted by the mystic or theologian as revelation of, or union with, a godhead; or it is taken for a manifestation of man's true and eternal Self. Such interpretations are conceived and accepted all the more readily since such meditative experience so greatly transcends the average level of consciousness that the temptation is very great, indeed, to connect it in some way or other with a deity or some other eternal principle. The overwhelming impact of such meditative experience on the mind will produce a strong feeling of certainty of its reality and superiority; and this strong feeling of assurance will be extended to the theological or speculative interpretation, too. In that way these interpretations will obtain a strong hold on the mind, for they are imagined to correspond with actual, irrefutable experience, while, in fact, they are only superimposed on the latter.

The analytical method of the Abhidhamma gives immunity against such deceptive interpretations. In the Dhammasangani the consciousness of meditative absorption (jhana) is subjected to the same sober analysis as the ordinary states of mind. It is shown that meditative consciousness, too, is a transitory combination of impermanent, conditioned and impersonal mental factors, which differ from their counterparts accompanying ordinary consciousness, only in their greater intensity and purity. They do not, therefore, warrant at all any assumption of a divine manifestation or an eternal Self
-M
pt1
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Re: Metaphysics / Abhidhamma VS Life Improvement

Post by pt1 »

Brizzy wrote:"how does one practice Abhidhamma"?

Can it be used to calm the mind or control arising anger?

How do the writers of the Abhidhamma books advise people to "practice"?
Meindzai gave you good pointers already. I think it's evident that answers to your questions will depend on who you ask, so don’t take what I say here on some sort of authority – this is just how I see it at the moment.

Abhidhamma to me is largely a description of how everything is experienced with very, very developed insight. So, in that sense I find it helps tremendously in regard of developing understanding, and that's what seems important since it's understanding that ultimately cuts through ignorance and the associated problems like anger, greed, lack of peace, etc.

As to how to practice, again it will depend on who you ask, but usually first you’d need to study/read a bit. If you’re lucky you’ll be able to contact an abhidhamma teacher and he will give you instructions. If not, then you’d just have to read what’s available online/in libraries. Hopefully, at some point, what you’ve read/learned will start to makes sense on the practical level, and then you will start to understand the ordinary things you normally do in a new light, no matter whether it’s calming the mind, developing metta, meditation, cooking, etc.

E.g. for me, since I’ve started studying abhidhamma a bit, suddenly a whole lot of things started making sense, in particular samatha, developing sila (precepts, metta, etc), understanding suttas, etc. It kind of adds a whole new dimension to everything. In fact, I find it hard to separate sutta and abhidhamma pitakas now – they kind of work the best together (hopefully I'll find time at some point to explore vinaya too).

Anyway, I guess this was more a chronological explanation of sorts than answering directly to your question of “how to practice”. I think “how” will basically depend on the approach you have the inclination for. Some people only study and discuss abhidhamma and they find that’s sufficient to develop insight. Others apply what they learn in abhidhmma to the practice they already had before and hopefully enhance it in that way. Yet others use both approaches at different times, etc. I guess you’d be able to decide what suits you when you become a little more familiar with it and hopefully hear from an experienced teacher as well.

If you’re in the mood for some reading, this is a good overview:
The Abhidhamma in Practice

That was the first thing I read, and then went onto the two works Meindzai linked, and then to the first one in the list in the abhidhamma resources thread:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=826" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Best wishes
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