Rasmussen/Snyder "Practicing the Jhanas"

A forum for beginners and members of other Buddhist traditions to ask questions about Theravāda (The Way of the Elders). Responses require moderator approval before they are visible in order to double-check alignment to Theravāda orthodoxy.
User avatar
Lazy_eye
Posts: 996
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:23 pm
Location: Laurel, MD
Contact:

Rasmussen/Snyder "Practicing the Jhanas"

Post by Lazy_eye »

Hello:

I was browsing around at the bookstore today and came across "Practicing the Jhanas: Traditional Concentration Meditation as Presented by the Venerable Pa Auk Sayadaw", by the husband-and-wife team of Tina Rasmussen and Stephen Snyder. It looked interesting, reliable in terms of presenting the dhamma, and full of practical information of use to the layperson, and I'm wondering if anyone here is familiar with it and would recommend it. The authors seem credible as they both have had years of rigorous training and were ordained monastics before returning to worldly life.

Since I'm committed personally to practicing within a lay context I found this quite relevant but I'd like to hear others' opinions about the book and the authors' approach.

Namaste,

LE
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 17191
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Rasmussen/Snyder "Practicing the Jhanas"

Post by DNS »

I'd keep a watchful eye (not a 'lazy eye') out for those Snyders.

:spy:

It looks like it must be good. I haven't read it yet, but it has some good reviews:

http://www.amazon.com/Practicing-Jhanas ... t_ep_dpi_1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
User avatar
Zom
Posts: 2712
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: Rasmussen/Snyder "Practicing the Jhanas"

Post by Zom »

It looked interesting, reliable in terms of presenting the dhamma, and full of practical information of use to the layperson, and I'm wondering if anyone here is familiar with it and would recommend it. The authors seem credible as they both have had years of rigorous training and were ordained monastics before returning to worldly life.
I would not trust practical advice on jhanas from those who have disrobed. In the suttas it is clearly stated that jhanas are much more sublime than sensual pleasures and I'm sure if one have really made it to the jhana, he would not drop it and return to "lower life" - especially in Buddha teaching.
"Mahanama, that very mental quality is what is unabandoned within you so that there are times when the mental quality of greed... the mental quality of aversion... the mental quality of delusion invades your mind and remains. For if that mental quality were abandoned in you, you would not live the household life and would not partake of sensuality. It's because that mental quality is not abandoned in you that you live the household life and partake of sensuality.

"Even though a disciple of the noble ones has clearly seen as it actually is with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, still — if he has not attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful mental qualities, or something more peaceful than that [4] — he can be tempted by sensuality. But when he has clearly seen as it actually is with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, and he has attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful mental qualities, or something more peaceful than that, he cannot be tempted by sensuality.
MN 14
User avatar
Virgo
Posts: 1546
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:52 pm
Location: United States

Re: Rasmussen/Snyder "Practicing the Jhanas"

Post by Virgo »

Zom wrote:
It looked interesting, reliable in terms of presenting the dhamma, and full of practical information of use to the layperson, and I'm wondering if anyone here is familiar with it and would recommend it. The authors seem credible as they both have had years of rigorous training and were ordained monastics before returning to worldly life.
I would not trust practical advice on jhanas from those who have disrobed. In the suttas it is clearly stated that jhanas are much more sublime than sensual pleasures and I'm sure if one have really made it to the jhana, he would not drop it and return to "lower life" - especially in Buddha teaching.
Hi Zom,

Where does it say these the teachers (at least the male one, Stephen) disrobed?

There were lay people that practiced jhanas in the Buddhas time and probably afterward. Don't you think it is a little rash to turn people away from them simply because they are lay teachers? What if they truly are people that have attained jhana?

Kevin
User avatar
Zom
Posts: 2712
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: Rasmussen/Snyder "Practicing the Jhanas"

Post by Zom »

Where does it say these the teachers (at least the male one, Stephen) disrobed?
In the first post:
"as they both have had years of rigorous training and were ordained monastics before returning to worldly life"
There were lay people that practiced jhanas in the Buddhas time and probably afterward.
There is not much information about that in the suttas. As I see it - jhana is almost the very end of path of practise, but lay followers are usually only on the very start =)... So I don't think that many lay people can attain jhanas.
What if they truly are people that have attained jhana?
May be yes, but may be no. As for me - I'd better trust monks in this question (I mean jhana practice).
Last edited by Zom on Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
PeterB
Posts: 3909
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Rasmussen/Snyder "Practicing the Jhanas"

Post by PeterB »

What would you say to a monk still in the robe that advised against practising the Jhanas at all ? I know several.
User avatar
Zom
Posts: 2712
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: Rasmussen/Snyder "Practicing the Jhanas"

Post by Zom »

What would you say to a monk still in the robe that advised against practising the Jhanas at all ? I know several.
I would recommend to read as many suttas as possible in this case =) Jhana practise is so often mentioned throughout all the Pali Canon that I hardly believe that knowledgeable monk could persuade others to stop jhana practise =)
User avatar
bodom
Posts: 7216
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Rasmussen/Snyder "Practicing the Jhanas"

Post by bodom »

In sutta AN 5.176 the Buddha advised householders to "periodically enter & remain in seclusion & rapture" which according to the commentaries refers to the first and second jhana.
Then Anathapindika the householder, surrounded by about 500 lay followers, went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there the Blessed One said to him, "Householder, you have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick, but you shouldn't rest content with the thought, 'We have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick.' So you should train yourself, 'Let's periodically enter & remain in seclusion & rapture.' That's how you should train yourself."


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
User avatar
Zom
Posts: 2712
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: Rasmussen/Snyder "Practicing the Jhanas"

Post by Zom »

Yes, but this is almost the only recommendation to lay followers on this account.

By the way, if to read this phrase directly, then I can say that I too sometimes stay in seclusion (apart from different sensual distraction) and even, though not too often, experience some kind of rapture in meditation. However I'm sure that I'm not in the 1st or 2nd jhana... =)
Last edited by Zom on Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
PeterB
Posts: 3909
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Rasmussen/Snyder "Practicing the Jhanas"

Post by PeterB »

I suspect that the passage in question does not refer to the jhanas.
User avatar
Chula
Posts: 180
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 5:58 am
Location: Sri Lanka

Re: Rasmussen/Snyder "Practicing the Jhanas"

Post by Chula »

Zom wrote:
There were lay people that practiced jhanas in the Buddhas time and probably afterward.
There is not much information about that in the suttas. As I see it - jhana is almost the very end of path of practise, but lay followers are usually only on the very start =)... So I don't think that many lay people can attain jhanas.
There is evidence in the Citta Samyutta in Samyutta Nikaya where Citta the householder tells Nigantha Nathaputta that he has attained all four jhanas. I can't find an online translation right now but I'll at least transcribe the relevant sutta later.

Of course, I do agree that monks/nuns who disrobe to pursue a worldly life and proclaim to have attained jhana should be viewed suspiciously since jhana is supposed to be better than sensual pleasures..
Kenshou
Posts: 1030
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:03 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: Rasmussen/Snyder "Practicing the Jhanas"

Post by Kenshou »

Well, does jhana somehow eradicate all worldly cravings right then? As far as I know, jhana practice is a tool which can (or might not) be optimally utilized in the scheme of the entire path. Though there is a degree of prerequisite training getting some jhana-skills, that alone isn't going to cut off all one's worldly intoxications just like that. So, gaining a jhana in a monastic setting is no guarantee someone might eventually disrobe, I think.

I'm of the opinion that the jhanas are not something so inaccessible to at least a dedicated lay practitioner, and it isn't so unreasonable to think that some practiced it, being a part of the eightfold path and all, but that's dependent upon many variables, one's idea of what constitutes jhana being one among several, and it's a discussion which has been well trod already I suppose.
User avatar
Zom
Posts: 2712
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: Rasmussen/Snyder "Practicing the Jhanas"

Post by Zom »

By the way, Ajahn Jayasaro said to me personally that very few monks attain jhanas nowadays (though as far as I understood he was speaking about thai monks only). Well... if it is really so what to say about lay people.. -)
I'm of the opinion that the jhanas are not something so inaccessible to at least a dedicated lay practitioner
I think they are accessible to those lay people who live and practise like monks - at least 8 precepts and so on...
Kenshou
Posts: 1030
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:03 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: Rasmussen/Snyder "Practicing the Jhanas"

Post by Kenshou »

In general, I'd agree, though perhaps not exactly in terms of degree of monkishness, lay life has it's hangups, but when the mind is properly guarded these things don't need to be an impediment. A few months of consistent practice, study and some outside pushes in the right direction can bring very good results.
User avatar
bodom
Posts: 7216
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Rasmussen/Snyder "Practicing the Jhanas"

Post by bodom »

PeterB wrote:I suspect that the passage in question does not refer to the jhanas.
On what basis?

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
Post Reply