Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

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Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Brizzy » Sat Apr 17, 2010 2:37 pm

Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

SN 47.10 Bhikkhunivasako Sutta.

:smile:

Sorry - I could not find a full & reliable online text.
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Apr 17, 2010 5:50 pm

No, there are some suttas which refer to this, Satipattana practice can and does lead onto the jhanas but sati and jhana are two seperat things [distinguished apart, but related], if you go onto access to insight and look at the wings to awakening there are some suttas pointed out in the end section look for Jhana in the index.
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby meindzai » Sat Apr 17, 2010 6:15 pm

Can't say much in response to the unquoted Sutta - but I'd say no. However, sati (mindfulness) in general is an important mental factor in jhana, which starts to be included as a jhanic "factor" in the third jhana and comes to perfection in the fourth. Also, right mindfulness (which includes the four foundations) being a factor of the eightfold path serves as a support for right concentration.
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Virgo » Sat Apr 17, 2010 9:12 pm

Brizzy wrote:Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Nope.

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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Alex123 » Sat Apr 17, 2010 9:46 pm

Brizzy wrote:Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

SN 47.10 Bhikkhunivasako Sutta.

:smile:

Sorry - I could not find a full & reliable online text.



Sati (mindfulness/memory) is one of the factors within Jhana and so are some objects of satipatthana are there.

"There was the case where Sariputta — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities — entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana — directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness,2 desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


With metta,

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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Brizzy » Sun Apr 18, 2010 7:13 am

Virgo wrote:
Brizzy wrote:Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Nope.

Kevin


Does not sati reach its peak in the fourth jhana?

"And furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure and stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation and distress — he enters and remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity and mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. He sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness, so that there is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness.

"Just as if a man were sitting wrapped from head to foot with a white cloth so that there would be no part of his body to which the white cloth did not extend; even so, the monk sits, permeating his body with a pure, bright awareness. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness."

— AN 5.28
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Brizzy » Sun Apr 18, 2010 7:23 am

Manapa wrote:No, there are some suttas which refer to this, Satipattana practice can and does lead onto the jhanas but sati and jhana are two seperat things [distinguished apart, but related], if you go onto access to insight and look at the wings to awakening there are some suttas pointed out in the end section look for Jhana in the index.


I suppose synonymous is not exact. I think that what I am trying to ask is, if people consider that the culmination or aim of satipatthana is jhana - perfected sati.

:smile:
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Apr 18, 2010 7:51 am

Brizzy wrote:
I suppose synonymous is not exact. I think that what I am trying to ask is, if people consider that the culmination or aim of satipatthana is jhana - perfected sati.
There is nothing in the quote that says "perfected sati."
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Brizzy » Sun Apr 18, 2010 12:59 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Brizzy wrote:
I suppose synonymous is not exact. I think that what I am trying to ask is, if people consider that the culmination or aim of satipatthana is jhana - perfected sati.
There is nothing in the quote that says "perfected sati."


Is purity of sati near enough?

:smile:
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Apr 18, 2010 1:08 pm

Brizzy wrote:
Is purity of sati near enough?

Be kind enough to supply the Pali of the text in question.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Virgo » Sun Apr 18, 2010 1:46 pm

Brizzy wrote:
Manapa wrote:No, there are some suttas which refer to this, Satipattana practice can and does lead onto the jhanas but sati and jhana are two seperat things [distinguished apart, but related], if you go onto access to insight and look at the wings to awakening there are some suttas pointed out in the end section look for Jhana in the index.


I suppose synonymous is not exact. I think that what I am trying to ask is, if people consider that the culmination or aim of satipatthana is jhana - perfected sati.

:smile:

The culmination of insight is the mind taking nibbana as object. This occurs as a moment of jhana with the deathless as its object. This is far, far, far, far, far, different from mundane jhana though, which leads to rebirth. Jhana with nibbana as object cuts off the head of the foe. Mundane jhana (the eight jhanas) just makes the foe hide for a bit (which is still good but not nearly as good as supramundane jhana).

Mundane jhana is a state of absorption. It is kusala kamma of a very high degree. For those with accumulations to master the jhanas, it most certainly can be used as a basis for insight. For the Sukkhavipassaka person, mundane jhana is not necessary, since insight can result from developed panna alone.

See for example:

In the Susima sutta the Buddha explained about sukkavipassaka
arhants - those who are liberated without having jhana.
Venerable Bodhi translates the commentary to this sutta:

Saratthappakasini (Atthakatha) :
QUOTE
"Why is this said? For the purpose
of showing the arising of
knowledge thus even without concentration.
This is meant: "Susima, the path and fruit are not the issue of
concentration (samadhinissanda), nor the advantage brought about by
concentration (samadhi-anisamsa), nor the outcome of concentration
(samadhinipphatti). They are the issue of insight (vipassana), the
advantage brought about by insight, the outcome of insight.
Therefore, whether you understand or not, first comes knowledge of
the stability of the Dhamma, afterwards knowledge of Nibbana.
Spk-pt (tika): 'Even without concentration' (vina pi samadhim): even
without
previously established (concentration) that has acquired the
characteristic of serenity (samatha-lakkhanappattam); this is said
referring to one who takes the vehicle of insight
(vipassanayanika)..."
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Apr 18, 2010 5:13 pm

Brizzy wrote:
Manapa wrote:No, there are some suttas which refer to this, Satipattana practice can and does lead onto the jhanas but sati and jhana are two seperat things [distinguished apart, but related], if you go onto access to insight and look at the wings to awakening there are some suttas pointed out in the end section look for Jhana in the index.


I suppose synonymous is not exact. I think that what I am trying to ask is, if people consider that the culmination or aim of satipatthana is jhana - perfected sati.

:smile:


mindfulness and concentration are two different folds of the path and preform different functions.

right mindfulness, view, and effort have a part to play in the all the other folds of the eightfold path, but that doesn't mean that any of them are one and the same as another fold, or that the level of purity indicates anything other than how these work together in different levels of proficiency.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Alex123 » Sun Apr 18, 2010 7:35 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Brizzy wrote:
Is purity of sati near enough?

Be kind enough to supply the Pali of the text in question.




example of 4th Jhana
"Then again the monk, with the abandoning of pleasure & stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
‘‘Puna caparaṃ, bhikkhave, bhikkhu sukhassa ca pahānā dukkhassa ca pahānā pubbeva somanassadomanassānaṃ atthaṅgamā adukkhamasukhaṃ upekkhāsatipārisuddhiṃ catutthaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.




Purity of sati (satipārisuddhiṃ) happens in 4th Jhana.
I was not; I was; I am not; I do not care."
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Apr 18, 2010 10:04 pm

Hi Brizzy & Alex,
Purity and perfected are not the same and would give slightly different connotations.

purity would give an implication of how sati is when in accompanying this Jhana, whereas perfected would imply that sati is not a seperate quality, and sammasati as a fold would not exist because it would be a part of sammasamadhi

as it is taught seperately, and within contexts outside of samadhi and Jhana the quote isn't providing reference to perfected, which I believe tilt was looking for.

just my take.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Apr 18, 2010 10:42 pm

Manapa wrote:Hi Brizzy & Alex,
Purity and perfected are not the same and would give slightly different connotations.

purity would give an implication of how sati is when in accompanying this Jhana, whereas perfected would imply that sati is not a seperate quality, and sammasati as a fold would not exist because it would be a part of sammasamadhi

as it is taught seperately, and within contexts outside of samadhi and Jhana the quote isn't providing reference to perfected, which I believe tilt was looking for.

just my take.

Nothing to add here.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby jcsuperstar » Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:48 am

if jhana and sati were synonymous wouldn't we just have a 7fold path?
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:25 am

jcsuperstar wrote:if jhana and sati were synonymous wouldn't we just have a 7fold path?
And then we would not have those pesky vipassana traditions coming out of Burma.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Brizzy » Mon Apr 19, 2010 6:48 am

Alex123 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Brizzy wrote:
Is purity of sati near enough?

Be kind enough to supply the Pali of the text in question.




example of 4th Jhana
"Then again the monk, with the abandoning of pleasure & stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
‘‘Puna caparaṃ, bhikkhave, bhikkhu sukhassa ca pahānā dukkhassa ca pahānā pubbeva somanassadomanassānaṃ atthaṅgamā adukkhamasukhaṃ upekkhāsatipārisuddhiṃ catutthaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.


Thanks

:smile:



Purity of sati (satipārisuddhiṃ) happens in 4th Jhana.
Brizzy
 

Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 19, 2010 6:51 am

Brizzy wrote:Purity of sati (satipārisuddhiṃ) happens in 4th Jhana.
He said ignoring other comments made about this issue which raises the question: And your point is?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Brizzy » Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:11 am

Manapa wrote:Hi Brizzy & Alex,
Purity and perfected are not the same and would give slightly different connotations.

purity would give an implication of how sati is when in accompanying this Jhana, whereas perfected would imply that sati is not a seperate quality, and sammasati as a fold would not exist because it would be a part of sammasamadhi

as it is taught seperately, and within contexts outside of samadhi and Jhana the quote isn't providing reference to perfected, which I believe tilt was looking for.

just my take.


If something attains purity, I think it is hair-splitting to doubt its perfection. Sati attains purity in the fourth jhana.
As an eightfold path - There is a synergy amongst the different parts of the path. It is a debatable point whether sati is actually taught seperately from samadhi/jhana as my sutta reference indicated. It seems that sati has jhana as its aim.

"........In one of right mindfulness, right concentration arises."


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn45/sn45.001.than.html

And right concentration is........jhana.

"And what, monks, is right concentration? (i) There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. (ii) With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. (iii) With the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' (iv) With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This, monks, is called right concentration."

That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted at his words."


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn45/sn45.008.than.html

:smile:
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