Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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jcsuperstar
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by jcsuperstar »

if jhana and sati were synonymous wouldn't we just have a 7fold path?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by tiltbillings »

jcsuperstar wrote:if jhana and sati were synonymous wouldn't we just have a 7fold path?
And then we would not have those pesky vipassana traditions coming out of Burma.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Brizzy

Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by Brizzy »

Alex123 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Brizzy wrote:
Is purity of sati near enough?
Be kind enough to supply the Pali of the text in question.


example of 4th Jhana
"Then again the monk, with the abandoning of pleasure & stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
‘‘Puna caparaṃ, bhikkhave, bhikkhu sukhassa ca pahānā dukkhassa ca pahānā pubbeva somanassadomanassānaṃ atthaṅgamā adukkhamasukhaṃ upekkhāsatipārisuddhiṃ catutthaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.
Thanks

:smile:



Purity of sati (satipārisuddhiṃ) happens in 4th Jhana.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by tiltbillings »

Brizzy wrote: Purity of sati (satipārisuddhiṃ) happens in 4th Jhana.
He said ignoring other comments made about this issue which raises the question: And your point is?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Brizzy

Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by Brizzy »

Manapa wrote:Hi Brizzy & Alex,
Purity and perfected are not the same and would give slightly different connotations.

purity would give an implication of how sati is when in accompanying this Jhana, whereas perfected would imply that sati is not a seperate quality, and sammasati as a fold would not exist because it would be a part of sammasamadhi

as it is taught seperately, and within contexts outside of samadhi and Jhana the quote isn't providing reference to perfected, which I believe tilt was looking for.

just my take.
If something attains purity, I think it is hair-splitting to doubt its perfection. Sati attains purity in the fourth jhana.
As an eightfold path - There is a synergy amongst the different parts of the path. It is a debatable point whether sati is actually taught seperately from samadhi/jhana as my sutta reference indicated. It seems that sati has jhana as its aim.

"........In one of right mindfulness, right concentration arises."


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

And right concentration is........jhana.

"And what, monks, is right concentration? (i) There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. (ii) With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. (iii) With the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' (iv) With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This, monks, is called right concentration."

That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted at his words."


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

:smile:
Brizzy

Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by Brizzy »

tiltbillings wrote:
Brizzy wrote: Purity of sati (satipārisuddhiṃ) happens in 4th Jhana.
He said ignoring other comments made about this issue which raises the question: And your point is?
Hi

Please read the thread again.

I did not write the above.

I just happen to be in agreement with it.

I think you are ignoring the comments made by the suttas.

My point is that sati has jhana as its culmination.

:smile:
Brizzy

Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by Brizzy »

Virgo wrote:
Brizzy wrote:
Manapa wrote:No, there are some suttas which refer to this, Satipattana practice can and does lead onto the jhanas but sati and jhana are two seperat things [distinguished apart, but related], if you go onto access to insight and look at the wings to awakening there are some suttas pointed out in the end section look for Jhana in the index.
I suppose synonymous is not exact. I think that what I am trying to ask is, if people consider that the culmination or aim of satipatthana is jhana - perfected sati.

:smile:
The culmination of insight is the mind taking nibbana as object. This occurs as a moment of jhana with the deathless as its object. This is far, far, far, far, far, different from mundane jhana though, which leads to rebirth. Jhana with nibbana as object cuts off the head of the foe. Mundane jhana (the eight jhanas) just makes the foe hide for a bit (which is still good but not nearly as good as supramundane jhana).

Mundane jhana is a state of absorption. It is kusala kamma of a very high degree. For those with accumulations to master the jhanas, it most certainly can be used as a basis for insight. For the Sukkhavipassaka person, mundane jhana is not necessary, since insight can result from developed panna alone.

See for example:

In the Susima sutta the Buddha explained about sukkavipassaka
arhants - those who are liberated without having jhana.
Venerable Bodhi translates the commentary to this sutta:

Saratthappakasini (Atthakatha) :
QUOTE
"Why is this said? For the purpose
of showing the arising of
knowledge thus even without concentration.
This is meant: "Susima, the path and fruit are not the issue of
concentration (samadhinissanda), nor the advantage brought about by
concentration (samadhi-anisamsa), nor the outcome of concentration
(samadhinipphatti). They are the issue of insight (vipassana), the
advantage brought about by insight, the outcome of insight.
Therefore, whether you understand or not, first comes knowledge of
the stability of the Dhamma, afterwards knowledge of Nibbana.
Spk-pt (tika): 'Even without concentration' (vina pi samadhim): even
without
previously established (concentration) that has acquired the
characteristic of serenity (samatha-lakkhanappattam); this is said
referring to one who takes the vehicle of insight
(vipassanayanika)..."
Kevin
Hi

Your selection of the Susima sutta is interesting as is the fact you did not show its online translation

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

The introduction provides a much clearer argument by Thanissaro Bhikkhu than I could manage.

:smile:
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tiltbillings
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by tiltbillings »

Brizzy wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Brizzy wrote: Purity of sati (satipārisuddhiṃ) happens in 4th Jhana.
He said ignoring other comments made about this issue which raises the question: And your point is?
Hi

Please read the thread again.

I did not write the above.

I just happen to be in agreement with it.

I think you are ignoring the comments made by the suttas.

My point is that sati has jhana as its culmination.
Depends upon you mean by sati and by jhana.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Virgo
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by Virgo »

Brizzy wrote: And right concentration is........jhana.
I would read this if I were you (the whole page): http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/index. ... c=93&st=20

P.S. About what you said about the Susima Sutta, what I quoted is from the ancient Commentarial tradition, what bhikkhu Thanissaro writes is just his own modern day interpretation.

Have a nice day,

Kevin
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by Cittasanto »

Hi Brizzy,
Your quote didn't and doesn't mention sati 'attains' purity there i.e. it is developed there, rather 'it is pure there' there is a difference, and I am not doubting it is pure in the instance you quoted, what I am doubting is it is developed there, rather than due to causes and conditions of the other folds.

As there are Suttas (i.e. the teachings) which refer to right view being required for sammasamadhi and the other folds of the path also, is it to be assumed they are all sammasamadhi under different guises? no, that would be taking the part of the teachings out of the wider context of the other teachings and because the deeper levels of concentration are not required for liberation (only certain knowledges/powers) it is pushing sati out of its wider context within the teachings also.

You asked a question and it has been answered, what are you trying to prove?
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by Kenshou »

Virgo wrote:
Brizzy wrote: And right concentration is........jhana.
I would read this if I were you (the whole page): http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/index. ... c=93&st=20

P.S. About what you said about the Susima Sutta, what I quoted is from the ancient Commentarial tradition, what bhikkhu Thanissaro writes is just his own modern day interpretation.

Have a nice day,

Kevin
Well, the commentarial writings are also -just- someone's interpretation, are they not? I'm not suggesting that there's anything wrong with that, though.
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Alex123
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by Alex123 »

Brizzy wrote: My point is that sati has jhana as its culmination.
Right
"Singleness of mind is concentration, friend Visakha; the four frames of reference are its themes; the four right exertions are its requisites; and any cultivation, development, & pursuit of these qualities is its development."

Right effort, right mindfulness, & right concentration come under the aggregate of concentration.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Note the interdependence of these factors. Samadhi uses satipatthana and it uses 4 right efforts. These qualities work together.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by tiltbillings »

Alex123 wrote: Samadhi uses satipatthana and it uses 4 right efforts. These qualities work together.
True, except I would say that it the other way around satipatthana uses samadhi, given that it is certainly possible to develop highly refined samadhi without developing insight.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Virgo
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by Virgo »

Kenshou wrote:
Virgo wrote:
Brizzy wrote: And right concentration is........jhana.
I would read this if I were you (the whole page): http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/index. ... c=93&st=20

P.S. About what you said about the Susima Sutta, what I quoted is from the ancient Commentarial tradition, what bhikkhu Thanissaro writes is just his own modern day interpretation.

Have a nice day,

Kevin
Well, the commentarial writings are also -just- someone's interpretation, are they not? I'm not suggesting that there's anything wrong with that, though.
There is a big difference.

with metta,

Kevin
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by Reductor »

Virgo wrote:
Kenshou wrote:Well, the commentarial writings are also -just- someone's interpretation, are they not? I'm not suggesting that there's anything wrong with that, though.
There is a big difference.
Could you elaborate? Giving credence to one opinion over that of another based on tradition alone is not that satisfactory. In the case of Thanissaro, we could, theoretically, question him, whereas the commentators seem to be beyond questioning, both temporally and religiously.

Recall the grounds for acceptance of a doctrine: through faith, agreement, oral tradition, reasoned contemplation, reflective acceptance (MN 95). All five modes of acceptance might lead to acceptance of what is not true, or rejection of what is true.
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