Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Brizzy » Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:19 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Brizzy wrote:Purity of sati (satipārisuddhiṃ) happens in 4th Jhana.
He said ignoring other comments made about this issue which raises the question: And your point is?


Hi

Please read the thread again.

I did not write the above.

I just happen to be in agreement with it.

I think you are ignoring the comments made by the suttas.

My point is that sati has jhana as its culmination.

:smile:
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Brizzy » Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:23 am

Virgo wrote:
Brizzy wrote:
Manapa wrote:No, there are some suttas which refer to this, Satipattana practice can and does lead onto the jhanas but sati and jhana are two seperat things [distinguished apart, but related], if you go onto access to insight and look at the wings to awakening there are some suttas pointed out in the end section look for Jhana in the index.


I suppose synonymous is not exact. I think that what I am trying to ask is, if people consider that the culmination or aim of satipatthana is jhana - perfected sati.

:smile:

The culmination of insight is the mind taking nibbana as object. This occurs as a moment of jhana with the deathless as its object. This is far, far, far, far, far, different from mundane jhana though, which leads to rebirth. Jhana with nibbana as object cuts off the head of the foe. Mundane jhana (the eight jhanas) just makes the foe hide for a bit (which is still good but not nearly as good as supramundane jhana).

Mundane jhana is a state of absorption. It is kusala kamma of a very high degree. For those with accumulations to master the jhanas, it most certainly can be used as a basis for insight. For the Sukkhavipassaka person, mundane jhana is not necessary, since insight can result from developed panna alone.

See for example:

In the Susima sutta the Buddha explained about sukkavipassaka
arhants - those who are liberated without having jhana.
Venerable Bodhi translates the commentary to this sutta:

Saratthappakasini (Atthakatha) :
QUOTE
"Why is this said? For the purpose
of showing the arising of
knowledge thus even without concentration.
This is meant: "Susima, the path and fruit are not the issue of
concentration (samadhinissanda), nor the advantage brought about by
concentration (samadhi-anisamsa), nor the outcome of concentration
(samadhinipphatti). They are the issue of insight (vipassana), the
advantage brought about by insight, the outcome of insight.
Therefore, whether you understand or not, first comes knowledge of
the stability of the Dhamma, afterwards knowledge of Nibbana.
Spk-pt (tika): 'Even without concentration' (vina pi samadhim): even
without
previously established (concentration) that has acquired the
characteristic of serenity (samatha-lakkhanappattam); this is said
referring to one who takes the vehicle of insight
(vipassanayanika)..."
Kevin


Hi

Your selection of the Susima sutta is interesting as is the fact you did not show its online translation

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.070.than.html

The introduction provides a much clearer argument by Thanissaro Bhikkhu than I could manage.

:smile:
Brizzy
 

Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:58 am

Brizzy wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Brizzy wrote:Purity of sati (satipārisuddhiṃ) happens in 4th Jhana.
He said ignoring other comments made about this issue which raises the question: And your point is?


Hi

Please read the thread again.

I did not write the above.

I just happen to be in agreement with it.

I think you are ignoring the comments made by the suttas.

My point is that sati has jhana as its culmination.
Depends upon you mean by sati and by jhana.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Virgo » Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:09 pm

Brizzy wrote:And right concentration is........jhana.

I would read this if I were you (the whole page): http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=93&st=20

P.S. About what you said about the Susima Sutta, what I quoted is from the ancient Commentarial tradition, what bhikkhu Thanissaro writes is just his own modern day interpretation.

Have a nice day,

Kevin
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:08 pm

Hi Brizzy,
Your quote didn't and doesn't mention sati 'attains' purity there i.e. it is developed there, rather 'it is pure there' there is a difference, and I am not doubting it is pure in the instance you quoted, what I am doubting is it is developed there, rather than due to causes and conditions of the other folds.

As there are Suttas (i.e. the teachings) which refer to right view being required for sammasamadhi and the other folds of the path also, is it to be assumed they are all sammasamadhi under different guises? no, that would be taking the part of the teachings out of the wider context of the other teachings and because the deeper levels of concentration are not required for liberation (only certain knowledges/powers) it is pushing sati out of its wider context within the teachings also.

You asked a question and it has been answered, what are you trying to prove?
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Kenshou » Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:27 pm

Virgo wrote:
Brizzy wrote:And right concentration is........jhana.

I would read this if I were you (the whole page): http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=93&st=20

P.S. About what you said about the Susima Sutta, what I quoted is from the ancient Commentarial tradition, what bhikkhu Thanissaro writes is just his own modern day interpretation.

Have a nice day,

Kevin


Well, the commentarial writings are also -just- someone's interpretation, are they not? I'm not suggesting that there's anything wrong with that, though.
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Alex123 » Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:48 am

Brizzy wrote:My point is that sati has jhana as its culmination.



Right

"Singleness of mind is concentration, friend Visakha; the four frames of reference are its themes; the four right exertions are its requisites; and any cultivation, development, & pursuit of these qualities is its development."

Right effort, right mindfulness, & right concentration come under the aggregate of concentration.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


Note the interdependence of these factors. Samadhi uses satipatthana and it uses 4 right efforts. These qualities work together.
I was not; I was; I am not; I do not care."
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:09 am

Alex123 wrote: Samadhi uses satipatthana and it uses 4 right efforts. These qualities work together.

True, except I would say that it the other way around satipatthana uses samadhi, given that it is certainly possible to develop highly refined samadhi without developing insight.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Virgo » Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:58 am

Kenshou wrote:
Virgo wrote:
Brizzy wrote:And right concentration is........jhana.

I would read this if I were you (the whole page): http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=93&st=20

P.S. About what you said about the Susima Sutta, what I quoted is from the ancient Commentarial tradition, what bhikkhu Thanissaro writes is just his own modern day interpretation.

Have a nice day,

Kevin


Well, the commentarial writings are also -just- someone's interpretation, are they not? I'm not suggesting that there's anything wrong with that, though.

There is a big difference.

with metta,

Kevin
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Reductor » Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:15 am

Virgo wrote:
Kenshou wrote:Well, the commentarial writings are also -just- someone's interpretation, are they not? I'm not suggesting that there's anything wrong with that, though.

There is a big difference.


Could you elaborate? Giving credence to one opinion over that of another based on tradition alone is not that satisfactory. In the case of Thanissaro, we could, theoretically, question him, whereas the commentators seem to be beyond questioning, both temporally and religiously.

Recall the grounds for acceptance of a doctrine: through faith, agreement, oral tradition, reasoned contemplation, reflective acceptance (MN 95). All five modes of acceptance might lead to acceptance of what is not true, or rejection of what is true.
Michael

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72

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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:31 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Alex123 wrote: Samadhi uses satipatthana and it uses 4 right efforts. These qualities work together.

True, except I would say that it the other way around satipatthana uses samadhi, given that it is certainly possible to develop highly refined samadhi without developing insight.


:thumbsup:

AN 4.170 Yuganaddha Sutta: In Tandem wrote:"There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.

"Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.

"Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity in tandem with insight. As he develops tranquillity in tandem with insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.

"Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Brizzy » Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:32 am

Manapa wrote:
AN 4.170 Yuganaddha Sutta: In Tandem wrote:"There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.

"Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.

"Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity in tandem with insight. As he develops tranquillity in tandem with insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.

"Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.


In the context of this discussion, which is sati, are you saying sati = insight?

:smile:
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Kenshou » Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:48 pm

I don't think so, there's no reason to start mixing up terms like this. Insight is insight, sati is sati, jhana is jhana, satipatthana is satipatthana. These things are complementary, as each section of the eightfold path is complementary to the others, but they aren't the exact same thing.
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:51 pm

Brizzy wrote:In the context of this discussion, which is sati, are you saying sati = insight?


no, sati is relevant to the development of insight but does not equal anything other than sati, and can lead in any direction it is aimed.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Sobeh » Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:53 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Alex123 wrote: Samadhi uses satipatthana and it uses 4 right efforts. These qualities work together.

True, except I would say that it the other way around satipatthana uses samadhi, given that it is certainly possible to develop highly refined samadhi without developing insight.


@tiltbillings: isn't this putting the cart before the horse? Sure samadhi can be developed without sammasati, but that makes it micchasamadhi (as in Vedanta, for example) and not sammasamadhi - or am I confused?
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:02 pm

Sobeh wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Alex123 wrote: Samadhi uses satipatthana and it uses 4 right efforts. These qualities work together.

True, except I would say that it the other way around satipatthana uses samadhi, given that it is certainly possible to develop highly refined samadhi without developing insight.


@tiltbillings: isn't this putting the cart before the horse? Sure samadhi can be developed without sammasati, but that makes it micchasamadhi (as in Vedanta, for example) and not sammasamadhi - or am I confused?


Hi Sobeh,
I thought it was refering to Sati and its uses, rather than samadhi and its development.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Sobeh » Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:39 pm

Manapa wrote:Hi Sobeh,
I thought it was refering to Sati and its uses, rather than samadhi and its development.


Well, there are two things I'm responding to; this first post by Alex123 I found in agreement with the gradual training:

Alex123 wrote: Samadhi uses satipatthana and it uses 4 right efforts. These qualities work together.


I read this as sammasamadhi arises from sammasati, and sammasati arises from sammavayama. In other words, Right Concentration comes from Right Mindfulness which comes from Right Effort. This, then, seems to be in line with the Noble Eightfold Path. But this next quote is subtly different:

tiltbillings wrote:I would say that it the other way around satipatthana uses samadhi, given that it is certainly possible to develop highly refined samadhi without developing insight.


Here, I read it as saying sammasati uses sammasamadhi, which seems backwards. "Highly refined" samadhi does not sammasamadhi make - only sammasati does that, and in turn sammasati can lead to sammasamadhi only because it comes from sammavayama.
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:20 pm

Sobeh wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:I would say that it the other way around satipatthana uses samadhi, given that it is certainly possible to develop highly refined samadhi without developing insight.


Here, I read it as saying sammasati uses sammasamadhi, which seems backwards. "Highly refined" samadhi does not sammasamadhi make - only sammasati does that, and in turn sammasati can lead to sammasamadhi only because it comes from sammavayama.
Buddha-Dhamma is not the only religion that claims some sort of samadhi practice, as the suttas make clear. I used the expression "highly refined samadhi" to make that point, one can have highly refined samadhi without it being sammasamamadhi. Sammasamamadhi requires sammasati (satipatthana). The cultivation of sati(patthana) necessitates the cultivation concentration, but jhana in the Buddhaghosa sense is not an absolute necessity for the cultivation of insight.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Brizzy » Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:45 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Sobeh wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:I would say that it the other way around satipatthana uses samadhi, given that it is certainly possible to develop highly refined samadhi without developing insight.


............................................. Sammasamamadhi requires sammasati (satipatthana). The cultivation of sati(patthana) necessitates the cultivation concentration, but jhana in the Buddhaghosa sense is not an absolute necessity for the cultivation of insight.


I agree!

However Sammasamamadhi is jhana in the Buddha/sutta sense and not the Buddhaghosa variety.

:smile:
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:47 am

Brizzy wrote:
However Sammasamamadhi is jhana in the Buddha/sutta sense and not the Buddhaghosa variety.
Maybe, but then that certainly does not shoot down the Mahasi Sayadaw/U Pandita type practice. And I have yet to see a convincing, irrefutable demolishing of the notion of "dry insight" as spelled by Buddhaghosa.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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