Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Cittasanto
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by Cittasanto »

tiltbillings wrote:
Alex123 wrote: Samadhi uses satipatthana and it uses 4 right efforts. These qualities work together.
True, except I would say that it the other way around satipatthana uses samadhi, given that it is certainly possible to develop highly refined samadhi without developing insight.
:thumbsup:
AN 4.170 Yuganaddha Sutta: In Tandem wrote:"There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.

"Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.

"Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity in tandem with insight. As he develops tranquillity in tandem with insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.

"Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
Brizzy

Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by Brizzy »

Manapa wrote:
AN 4.170 Yuganaddha Sutta: In Tandem wrote:"There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.

"Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.

"Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity in tandem with insight. As he develops tranquillity in tandem with insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.

"Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.
In the context of this discussion, which is sati, are you saying sati = insight?

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Kenshou
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by Kenshou »

I don't think so, there's no reason to start mixing up terms like this. Insight is insight, sati is sati, jhana is jhana, satipatthana is satipatthana. These things are complementary, as each section of the eightfold path is complementary to the others, but they aren't the exact same thing.
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

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Brizzy wrote:In the context of this discussion, which is sati, are you saying sati = insight?
no, sati is relevant to the development of insight but does not equal anything other than sati, and can lead in any direction it is aimed.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Sobeh
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by Sobeh »

tiltbillings wrote:
Alex123 wrote: Samadhi uses satipatthana and it uses 4 right efforts. These qualities work together.
True, except I would say that it the other way around satipatthana uses samadhi, given that it is certainly possible to develop highly refined samadhi without developing insight.
@tiltbillings: isn't this putting the cart before the horse? Sure samadhi can be developed without sammasati, but that makes it micchasamadhi (as in Vedanta, for example) and not sammasamadhi - or am I confused?
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by Cittasanto »

Sobeh wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Alex123 wrote: Samadhi uses satipatthana and it uses 4 right efforts. These qualities work together.
True, except I would say that it the other way around satipatthana uses samadhi, given that it is certainly possible to develop highly refined samadhi without developing insight.
@tiltbillings: isn't this putting the cart before the horse? Sure samadhi can be developed without sammasati, but that makes it micchasamadhi (as in Vedanta, for example) and not sammasamadhi - or am I confused?
Hi Sobeh,
I thought it was refering to Sati and its uses, rather than samadhi and its development.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Sobeh
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by Sobeh »

Manapa wrote:Hi Sobeh,
I thought it was refering to Sati and its uses, rather than samadhi and its development.
Well, there are two things I'm responding to; this first post by Alex123 I found in agreement with the gradual training:
Alex123 wrote: Samadhi uses satipatthana and it uses 4 right efforts. These qualities work together.
I read this as sammasamadhi arises from sammasati, and sammasati arises from sammavayama. In other words, Right Concentration comes from Right Mindfulness which comes from Right Effort. This, then, seems to be in line with the Noble Eightfold Path. But this next quote is subtly different:
tiltbillings wrote:I would say that it the other way around satipatthana uses samadhi, given that it is certainly possible to develop highly refined samadhi without developing insight.
Here, I read it as saying sammasati uses sammasamadhi, which seems backwards. "Highly refined" samadhi does not sammasamadhi make - only sammasati does that, and in turn sammasati can lead to sammasamadhi only because it comes from sammavayama.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by tiltbillings »

Sobeh wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:I would say that it the other way around satipatthana uses samadhi, given that it is certainly possible to develop highly refined samadhi without developing insight.
Here, I read it as saying sammasati uses sammasamadhi, which seems backwards. "Highly refined" samadhi does not sammasamadhi make - only sammasati does that, and in turn sammasati can lead to sammasamadhi only because it comes from sammavayama.
Buddha-Dhamma is not the only religion that claims some sort of samadhi practice, as the suttas make clear. I used the expression "highly refined samadhi" to make that point, one can have highly refined samadhi without it being sammasamamadhi. Sammasamamadhi requires sammasati (satipatthana). The cultivation of sati(patthana) necessitates the cultivation concentration, but jhana in the Buddhaghosa sense is not an absolute necessity for the cultivation of insight.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Brizzy

Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by Brizzy »

tiltbillings wrote:
Sobeh wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:I would say that it the other way around satipatthana uses samadhi, given that it is certainly possible to develop highly refined samadhi without developing insight.
............................................. Sammasamamadhi requires sammasati (satipatthana). The cultivation of sati(patthana) necessitates the cultivation concentration, but jhana in the Buddhaghosa sense is not an absolute necessity for the cultivation of insight.
I agree!

However Sammasamamadhi is jhana in the Buddha/sutta sense and not the Buddhaghosa variety.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by tiltbillings »

Brizzy wrote:
However Sammasamamadhi is jhana in the Buddha/sutta sense and not the Buddhaghosa variety.
Maybe, but then that certainly does not shoot down the Mahasi Sayadaw/U Pandita type practice. And I have yet to see a convincing, irrefutable demolishing of the notion of "dry insight" as spelled by Buddhaghosa.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by Sobeh »

tiltbillings wrote:I have yet to see a convincing, irrefutable demolishing of the notion of "dry insight" as spelled by Buddhaghosa.
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote this piece which does just such a thing in that it shows how the jhanas are essential to arahantship (and here we mean the first form jhana, or the four formless jhanas). Dry insight can get you sotapanna, but once-returner, non-returner, and arahant have attained the jhanas.
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by Cittasanto »

who is arguing Jhana isn't needed for full enlightenment?

BTW insight practices have been credited by some scholors as being able to take us up to the first two levels not just the first.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
Kenshou
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by Kenshou »

It seems logical to think that if a practice could get someone to one stage of awakening, that it could lead to the others eventually.
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by tiltbillings »

Sobeh wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:I have yet to see a convincing, irrefutable demolishing of the notion of "dry insight" as spelled by Buddhaghosa.
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote this piece which does just such a thing in that it shows how the jhanas are essential to arahantship (and here we mean the first form jhana, or the four formless jhanas). Dry insight can get you sotapanna, but once-returner, non-returner, and arahant have attained the jhanas.
And that makes my point. Dry insight can lead to ariya, once there jhana would hardly be a problem, but what actually constitutes jhana becomes an interesting question.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Brizzy

Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by Brizzy »

tiltbillings wrote:
Brizzy wrote:
However Sammasamamadhi is jhana in the Buddha/sutta sense and not the Buddhaghosa variety.
Maybe, but then that certainly does not shoot down the Mahasi Sayadaw/U Pandita type practice. And I have yet to see a convincing, irrefutable demolishing of the notion of "dry insight" as spelled by Buddhaghosa.
Why would one bother with notion of ""dry insight" as spelled by Buddhaghosa"?


When you can have the notion of the eightfold path (inclusive of jhana) as spelled out by the Buddha.

:smile:
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