Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Sobeh » Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:01 pm

tiltbillings wrote:I have yet to see a convincing, irrefutable demolishing of the notion of "dry insight" as spelled by Buddhaghosa.


Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote this piece which does just such a thing in that it shows how the jhanas are essential to arahantship (and here we mean the first form jhana, or the four formless jhanas). Dry insight can get you sotapanna, but once-returner, non-returner, and arahant have attained the jhanas.
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:23 pm

who is arguing Jhana isn't needed for full enlightenment?

BTW insight practices have been credited by some scholors as being able to take us up to the first two levels not just the first.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Kenshou » Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:34 pm

It seems logical to think that if a practice could get someone to one stage of awakening, that it could lead to the others eventually.
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:46 pm

Sobeh wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:I have yet to see a convincing, irrefutable demolishing of the notion of "dry insight" as spelled by Buddhaghosa.


Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote this piece which does just such a thing in that it shows how the jhanas are essential to arahantship (and here we mean the first form jhana, or the four formless jhanas). Dry insight can get you sotapanna, but once-returner, non-returner, and arahant have attained the jhanas.
And that makes my point. Dry insight can lead to ariya, once there jhana would hardly be a problem, but what actually constitutes jhana becomes an interesting question.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Brizzy » Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:50 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Brizzy wrote:
However Sammasamamadhi is jhana in the Buddha/sutta sense and not the Buddhaghosa variety.
Maybe, but then that certainly does not shoot down the Mahasi Sayadaw/U Pandita type practice. And I have yet to see a convincing, irrefutable demolishing of the notion of "dry insight" as spelled by Buddhaghosa.


Why would one bother with notion of ""dry insight" as spelled by Buddhaghosa"?


When you can have the notion of the eightfold path (inclusive of jhana) as spelled out by the Buddha.

:smile:
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Sobeh » Thu Apr 22, 2010 4:25 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Ecxept the problem is that have shown they are different.


That's a very unclear sentence; re-state?

[tb: thanks for catching that; corrected version below.]
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Apr 22, 2010 4:31 pm

Brizzy wrote:
Why would one bother with notion of ""dry insight" as spelled by Buddhaghosa"?


When you can have the notion of the eightfold path (inclusive of jhana) as spelled out by the Buddha.
Ecxept the problem is that you have not shown they are different. You have not shown much of anything other than you do not like (or seem to understand) the vipassana traditions.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Brizzy » Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:19 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Brizzy wrote:
Why would one bother with notion of ""dry insight" as spelled by Buddhaghosa"?


When you can have the notion of the eightfold path (inclusive of jhana) as spelled out by the Buddha.
Ecxept the problem is that you have not shown they are different. You have not shown much of anything other than you do not like (or seem to understand) the vipassana traditions.


Hi

What I "understand" is this.......

Dry insight - no jhana - sevenfold path

Jhana - full eightfold path

Of course they are different!

supramundane jhana? Not even mentioned in the suttas.

I have endeavoured to show they are different, if you don't agree - that's fine, but please be mindful that your last statement was of a personal nature and not dealing with the arguments.

:smile:
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:33 am

Greetings Brizzy,

Brizzy wrote:Dry insight - no jhana - sevenfold path

Jhana - full eightfold path

Of course they are different!


Do you see jhana and samadhi then as synonymous? (since as I'm sure you know, it's Right Samadhi, not Right Jhana)

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


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One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Brizzy » Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:35 am

jcsuperstar wrote:if jhana and sati were synonymous wouldn't we just have a 7fold path?


The seventh factor of the path is sati not satipatthana. My question revolves around the culmination of sati i.e. satipatthana.

:smile:
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Brizzy » Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:40 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Brizzy,

Brizzy wrote:Dry insight - no jhana - sevenfold path

Jhana - full eightfold path

Of course they are different!


Do you see jhana and samadhi then as synonymous? (since as I'm sure you know, it's Right Samadhi, not Right Jhana)

Metta,
Retro. :)


Yes.

:smile:
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Apr 23, 2010 7:37 pm

Brizzy wrote:
I have endeavoured to show they are different, if you don't agree - that's fine, but please be mindful that your last statement was of a personal nature and not dealing with the arguments.
You have not shown anything, making no real argument to even respond to. You certainly do not understand the vipassana traditions. I am waiting for a real argument to respond to here.

You have yet to show that Buddhaghosa differs from the suttas.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Sobeh » Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:28 pm

tiltbillings wrote:You have yet to show that Buddhaghosa differs from the suttas.


The burden of proof is on the claim that Buddhaghosa is similar, which I think is the contention here. You'll wait forever for an argument to respond to, because others are waiting for a reason to take the word of a Commentary over the Suttas.
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:10 pm

Sobeh wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:You have yet to show that Buddhaghosa differs from the suttas.


The burden of proof is on the claim that Buddhaghosa is similar, which I think is the contention here. You'll wait forever for an argument to respond to, because others are waiting for a reason to take the word of a Commentary over the Suttas.
Goodness. Commentaries are important, but are hardly the final word on things, but that does not mean that they also cannot get things right.

The point is, if you are going to claim that Buddhaghosa is not reflecting the sutta teachings accurately, simply claiming that is so is meaningless. The Brizzy subtext here is the vipassana traditions have gotten it wrong, but he really has not shown that he understands what the these traditions teach, which means he cannot show they have gotten it wrong vis a vis the suttas.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby meindzai » Sat Apr 24, 2010 1:18 am

Brizzy wrote:
jcsuperstar wrote:if jhana and sati were synonymous wouldn't we just have a 7fold path?


The seventh factor of the path is sati not satipatthana.



The seventh factor is samma sati (right mindfulness) which is defined as satipatthana - the four foundations of mindfulness:

"And what is right mindfulness? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called right mindfulness...
-DN 22 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... index.html


My question revolves around the culmination of sati i.e. satipatthana.

:smile:


My understanding of the purity/perfection of sati in Jhana is that sati has already been, from the outset, present as a factor in some degree, developed outside of meditation, but it is obscured by other jhanic factors. It becomes more prevailent as other jhanic factors drop away. It's the same with other factors (like equanimity) which are present to some degree, but not considered "jhanic factors" until unobscured.

The meditator in third jhana is also said to be mindful and discerning, which points to another pair of frequently conjoined mental functions. Mindfulness (sati), in this context, means the remembrance of the meditation object, the constant bearing of the object in mind without allowing it to float away. Discernment (sampajañña) is an aspect of wisdom or understanding which scrutinizes the object and grasps its nature free from delusion. Though these two factors were already present even in the first two jhanas, they are first mentioned only in connection with the third since it is here that their efficacy becomes manifest. The two are needed particularly to avoid a return to rapture. Just as a suckling calf, removed from its mother and left unguarded, again approaches the mother, so the happiness of jhana tends to veer towards rapture, its natural partner, if unguarded by mindfulness and discernment (Dhs. A.219). To prevent this and the consequent loss of the third jhana is the task of mindfulness and discernment.
The Jhanas in Theravada Buddhist Meditation - Bhante Gunaratana

Of course for this to work, mindfulness needs to be established in the context of the eightfold path. The first seven factors of the eighfold path serve as "supports and requisite conditions" for right concentration. See The Great Forty

-M
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby meindzai » Sat Apr 24, 2010 1:26 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Sobeh wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:I have yet to see a convincing, irrefutable demolishing of the notion of "dry insight" as spelled by Buddhaghosa.


Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote this piece which does just such a thing in that it shows how the jhanas are essential to arahantship (and here we mean the first form jhana, or the four formless jhanas). Dry insight can get you sotapanna, but once-returner, non-returner, and arahant have attained the jhanas.
And that makes my point. Dry insight can lead to ariya, once there jhana would hardly be a problem,

I agree. Once you're in the stream there's no getting back out - you are on your way to arahantship and I don't see how Jhana is going to be a problem at that point. I hardly think a stream enterer is thinking "oh shoot, I really need to get to work on Jhana now."

but what actually constitutes jhana becomes an interesting question.


Indeed. This is where I actually begin to favor the Abhidhammic explanations. Meaning I'd look in terms of "right concentration" as a mental factor that would naturally arise for the rather than something that needs to be deliberately practiced.

-M
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Kenshou » Sat Apr 24, 2010 1:59 am

I think that's a possibility. Jhana is only one of the four things that fall under right concentration. #3 & 4 look like the sort of things that would develop in the process of mindfulness practice weather or not someone chooses to engage in jhana practice specifically.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... index.html
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Apr 24, 2010 8:43 am

Kenshou wrote:I think that's a possibility. Jhana is only one of the four things that fall under right concentration. #3 & 4 look like the sort of things that would develop in the process of mindfulness practice weather or not someone chooses to engage in jhana practice specifically.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... index.html


Interestingly this small anthology gives another definition of Sammasamadhi

Noble right concentration

"Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness — is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions."

— MN 117

it is at the begining of the sutta quoted.

although the parts you mention #3&4 are the development of samadhi not sammasamadhi itself from my reading of the passages

(3) "And what is the development of concentration that... leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness.

(4) "And what is the development of concentration that... leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents.

"These are the four developments of concentration."

— AN 4.41

also #3 shows concentration can lead to mindfulness & allertness (satisampajanna)
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Brizzy » Sat Apr 24, 2010 3:08 pm

meindzai wrote:
Brizzy wrote:
jcsuperstar wrote:if jhana and sati were synonymous wouldn't we just have a 7fold path?


The seventh factor of the path is sati not satipatthana.



The seventh factor is samma sati (right mindfulness) which is defined as satipatthana - the four foundations of mindfulness:

"And what is right mindfulness? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called right mindfulness...
-DN 22 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... index.html

-M


But sati is not satipatthana. sati is recollection/awareness - satipatthana is something more....................

"SATIPATTHANA
Another important Pali term frequently encountered concerning
meditation is satipatthana. There is no definition of satipatthana, but
its practice is similar to that of sati –– basically to contemplate body,
feeling, mind and Dhamma.
Satipatthana comes from the words sati and patthana or
upatthana. Patthana or upatthana has been variously translated as
foundations, uprisings, applications, establishment, etc.. However,
these translations do not throw any light on the difference between
sati and satipatthana.
Intense state of recollection. When we investigate the suttas we find
that there is a difference between sati and satipatthana. As explained
earlier, sati means recollection. Now patthana possibly comes from
two words, pa and thana. Pa means ‘setting forth’, and also implies
going beyond. Thus it can also mean extreme, intense. Thana means
standing still, and can also mean a state or condition. Thus
satipatthana probably means an intense state of recollection. This
translation of satipatthana seems to agree with the suttas, to which I
shall now refer......................."


http://www.vbgnet.org/resources.asp ............Mindfulness, concentration and recollection by Bhante Dhammavuddho.

:smile:
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Apr 24, 2010 4:32 pm

having skimmed through that document and reading your quote it certainly gives me pause ...

sampajanna is mindfulness??
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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