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Anattā - Page 3 - Dhamma Wheel

Anattā

A forum for members who wish to develop a deeper understanding of the Pali Canon and associated Commentaries, which for discussion purposes are both treated as authoritative.

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Jechbi
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Re: Anattā

Postby Jechbi » Sun Feb 01, 2009 4:55 pm


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Re: Anattā

Postby Jechbi » Sun Feb 01, 2009 4:58 pm

I hope my comments are not out of place in this forum.
:namaste:

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cooran
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Re: Anattā

Postby cooran » Mon Feb 02, 2009 6:09 am

Hello all,

Yesterday after meditation, I asked Ven. Dhammasiha the same question as in the OP (minus the remark about Thanissaro Bhikkhu). He answered the question in an hour and a half. :D His response was extremely interesting and kept us all (about 20 or so) listening and discussing.

The major thing I took away from the session was that the Buddha wasn't giving an answer like a text book or a computer - he refused to do that. What he was doing in the many suttas about Anatta - especially in the discussions with those like Vachagotta - was to try to encourage learners to continuously look for themselves at whatever was arising and see that there was no self in any thing they were considering (be it sights, sounds, smells, tastes, bodily feelings, thoughts, emotions, etc), time and time and time again. After doing this continuously one arrives at certainty about the answer to the question "Is there a Self, and if so where/what is it?" by oneself. No one else can give you that certain knowledge, and once the knowledge is arrived at, no one else can shake that understanding.

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: Anattā

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Feb 02, 2009 7:09 am

Greetings Chris,

You have a good teacher there! :thumbsup:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Anattā

Postby kc2dpt » Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:06 pm

- Peter


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Re: Anattā

Postby Prasadachitta » Mon Feb 02, 2009 6:01 pm

"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

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Re: Anattā

Postby rowyourboat » Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:08 pm

"This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'

"As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true & established, or the view I have no self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self... or the view It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self arises in him as true & established, or else he has a view like this: This very self of mine — the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions — is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will stay just as it is for eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress.
.....
He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by seeing.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

The sabbasava sutta describes how certain types of thinking about the self just digs the hole a little deeper. The next bit goes onto explain that other types of attention reduces craving aversion and delusion (read satipatthana practice) and culminates in understanding the four noble truths in stream entry ('fermentations abandoned by seeing').

There's no point trying to come to a philosophical understanding about what the buddha said about this matter. Even if you hear a stream entrant explain it, you will only be able to grasp it with muddy hands and when the explanation is repeated it will be muddy. Best to resign to the fact that we cannot understand this using the usual tools but attempt to see it yourself using practice. That is when the conversation stops.
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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Jechbi
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Re: Anattā

Postby Jechbi » Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:20 pm


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Re: Anattā

Postby elaine » Thu Feb 05, 2009 5:01 am


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Re: Anattā

Postby Dhammanando » Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:22 pm


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Re: Anattā

Postby elaine » Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:53 am


nathan
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Re: Anattā

Postby nathan » Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:17 pm

I very much appreciate this discussion. Thank you everyone.

There are two things I would appreciate further clarified if possible.

1. Given that the impersonality of anatta is a universal constant, I don't understand why there would necessarily be any inconqruity between a conventional or conditional cognition of and the absolute or ultimate cognition of not-self, essence-less-ness, insubstantiality or impersonality? There is of course the distinction that conditional cognitions are variously limited and the absolute cognition would be comprehensive, absolute and extends to the cognition of nibbana as anatta. Thus anatta is cognized as truly universal in that it pertains even to the non-conditionally dependent or nibbana even if in regards to nibbana it looses much of the context for it's significance.

2. I would like to better understand the expressions of doctrine on how the three marks might be said to pertain or relate to nibbana. That nibbana is in no way atta is quite straightforward. How it is that the other two characteristics could applied or related to the featureless and condition-less dhamma is difficult to understand. It can be more easily seen that there is a conditionally dependent relationship to impermanence; in the arising of dependent conditions for inclination to relinquishment giving rise to nibbana, and also upon exiting cessation. I don't see that nibbana could be determined to be dukkha or related apart from the absence of conception or perception of dukkha, to describe dukkha as characteristic of nibbana seems contrary to the nature of both dukkha and nibbana.

How can the characteristics be said to pertain to the duration of a cessation apart from reference to the remainder or the continuity of the form of a living body during cessation? Mind or at the least the mental quality of cognition, contact or clinging does not arise for the period of cessation and so (if at such a time there could even be said to be any) any other persisting mental qualities and the body are then not even objects of perception or cognition.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}

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cooran
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Re: Anattā

Postby cooran » Mon Feb 09, 2009 3:10 am

---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

nathan
Posts: 692
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:11 am

Re: Anattā

Postby nathan » Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:01 pm

But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}


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