Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Sobeh
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by Sobeh »

tiltbillings wrote:Ecxept the problem is that have shown they are different.
That's a very unclear sentence; re-state?

[tb: thanks for catching that; corrected version below.]
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tiltbillings
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by tiltbillings »

Brizzy wrote:
Why would one bother with notion of ""dry insight" as spelled by Buddhaghosa"?


When you can have the notion of the eightfold path (inclusive of jhana) as spelled out by the Buddha.
Ecxept the problem is that you have not shown they are different. You have not shown much of anything other than you do not like (or seem to understand) the vipassana traditions.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Brizzy

Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by Brizzy »

tiltbillings wrote:
Brizzy wrote:
Why would one bother with notion of ""dry insight" as spelled by Buddhaghosa"?


When you can have the notion of the eightfold path (inclusive of jhana) as spelled out by the Buddha.
Ecxept the problem is that you have not shown they are different. You have not shown much of anything other than you do not like (or seem to understand) the vipassana traditions.
Hi

What I "understand" is this.......

Dry insight - no jhana - sevenfold path

Jhana - full eightfold path

Of course they are different!

supramundane jhana? Not even mentioned in the suttas.

I have endeavoured to show they are different, if you don't agree - that's fine, but please be mindful that your last statement was of a personal nature and not dealing with the arguments.

:smile:
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retrofuturist
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Brizzy,
Brizzy wrote:Dry insight - no jhana - sevenfold path

Jhana - full eightfold path

Of course they are different!
Do you see jhana and samadhi then as synonymous? (since as I'm sure you know, it's Right Samadhi, not Right Jhana)

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Brizzy

Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by Brizzy »

jcsuperstar wrote:if jhana and sati were synonymous wouldn't we just have a 7fold path?
The seventh factor of the path is sati not satipatthana. My question revolves around the culmination of sati i.e. satipatthana.

:smile:
Brizzy

Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by Brizzy »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Brizzy,
Brizzy wrote:Dry insight - no jhana - sevenfold path

Jhana - full eightfold path

Of course they are different!
Do you see jhana and samadhi then as synonymous? (since as I'm sure you know, it's Right Samadhi, not Right Jhana)

Metta,
Retro. :)
Yes.

:smile:
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tiltbillings
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by tiltbillings »

Brizzy wrote:
I have endeavoured to show they are different, if you don't agree - that's fine, but please be mindful that your last statement was of a personal nature and not dealing with the arguments.
You have not shown anything, making no real argument to even respond to. You certainly do not understand the vipassana traditions. I am waiting for a real argument to respond to here.

You have yet to show that Buddhaghosa differs from the suttas.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Sobeh
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by Sobeh »

tiltbillings wrote:You have yet to show that Buddhaghosa differs from the suttas.
The burden of proof is on the claim that Buddhaghosa is similar, which I think is the contention here. You'll wait forever for an argument to respond to, because others are waiting for a reason to take the word of a Commentary over the Suttas.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by tiltbillings »

Sobeh wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:You have yet to show that Buddhaghosa differs from the suttas.
The burden of proof is on the claim that Buddhaghosa is similar, which I think is the contention here. You'll wait forever for an argument to respond to, because others are waiting for a reason to take the word of a Commentary over the Suttas.
Goodness. Commentaries are important, but are hardly the final word on things, but that does not mean that they also cannot get things right.

The point is, if you are going to claim that Buddhaghosa is not reflecting the sutta teachings accurately, simply claiming that is so is meaningless. The Brizzy subtext here is the vipassana traditions have gotten it wrong, but he really has not shown that he understands what the these traditions teach, which means he cannot show they have gotten it wrong vis a vis the suttas.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
meindzai
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by meindzai »

Brizzy wrote:
jcsuperstar wrote:if jhana and sati were synonymous wouldn't we just have a 7fold path?
The seventh factor of the path is sati not satipatthana.
The seventh factor is samma sati (right mindfulness) which is defined as satipatthana - the four foundations of mindfulness:
"And what is right mindfulness? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called right mindfulness...
-DN 22 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My question revolves around the culmination of sati i.e. satipatthana.

:smile:
My understanding of the purity/perfection of sati in Jhana is that sati has already been, from the outset, present as a factor in some degree, developed outside of meditation, but it is obscured by other jhanic factors. It becomes more prevailent as other jhanic factors drop away. It's the same with other factors (like equanimity) which are present to some degree, but not considered "jhanic factors" until unobscured.
The meditator in third jhana is also said to be mindful and discerning, which points to another pair of frequently conjoined mental functions. Mindfulness (sati), in this context, means the remembrance of the meditation object, the constant bearing of the object in mind without allowing it to float away. Discernment (sampajañña) is an aspect of wisdom or understanding which scrutinizes the object and grasps its nature free from delusion. Though these two factors were already present even in the first two jhanas, they are first mentioned only in connection with the third since it is here that their efficacy becomes manifest. The two are needed particularly to avoid a return to rapture. Just as a suckling calf, removed from its mother and left unguarded, again approaches the mother, so the happiness of jhana tends to veer towards rapture, its natural partner, if unguarded by mindfulness and discernment (Dhs. A.219). To prevent this and the consequent loss of the third jhana is the task of mindfulness and discernment.
The Jhanas in Theravada Buddhist Meditation - Bhante Gunaratana

Of course for this to work, mindfulness needs to be established in the context of the eightfold path. The first seven factors of the eighfold path serve as "supports and requisite conditions" for right concentration. See The Great Forty

-M
meindzai
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by meindzai »

tiltbillings wrote:
Sobeh wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:I have yet to see a convincing, irrefutable demolishing of the notion of "dry insight" as spelled by Buddhaghosa.
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote this piece which does just such a thing in that it shows how the jhanas are essential to arahantship (and here we mean the first form jhana, or the four formless jhanas). Dry insight can get you sotapanna, but once-returner, non-returner, and arahant have attained the jhanas.
And that makes my point. Dry insight can lead to ariya, once there jhana would hardly be a problem,

I agree. Once you're in the stream there's no getting back out - you are on your way to arahantship and I don't see how Jhana is going to be a problem at that point. I hardly think a stream enterer is thinking "oh shoot, I really need to get to work on Jhana now."
but what actually constitutes jhana becomes an interesting question.
Indeed. This is where I actually begin to favor the Abhidhammic explanations. Meaning I'd look in terms of "right concentration" as a mental factor that would naturally arise for the rather than something that needs to be deliberately practiced.

-M
Kenshou
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by Kenshou »

I think that's a possibility. Jhana is only one of the four things that fall under right concentration. #3 & 4 look like the sort of things that would develop in the process of mindfulness practice weather or not someone chooses to engage in jhana practice specifically.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by Cittasanto »

Kenshou wrote:I think that's a possibility. Jhana is only one of the four things that fall under right concentration. #3 & 4 look like the sort of things that would develop in the process of mindfulness practice weather or not someone chooses to engage in jhana practice specifically.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Interestingly this small anthology gives another definition of Sammasamadhi
Noble right concentration

"Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness — is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions."

— MN 117
it is at the begining of the sutta quoted.

although the parts you mention #3&4 are the development of samadhi not sammasamadhi itself from my reading of the passages
(3) "And what is the development of concentration that... leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness.

(4) "And what is the development of concentration that... leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents.

"These are the four developments of concentration."

— AN 4.41
also #3 shows concentration can lead to mindfulness & allertness (satisampajanna)
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
Brizzy

Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by Brizzy »

meindzai wrote:
Brizzy wrote:
jcsuperstar wrote:if jhana and sati were synonymous wouldn't we just have a 7fold path?
The seventh factor of the path is sati not satipatthana.
The seventh factor is samma sati (right mindfulness) which is defined as satipatthana - the four foundations of mindfulness:
"And what is right mindfulness? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called right mindfulness...
-DN 22 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

-M
But sati is not satipatthana. sati is recollection/awareness - satipatthana is something more....................

"SATIPATTHANA
Another important Pali term frequently encountered concerning
meditation is satipatthana. There is no definition of satipatthana, but
its practice is similar to that of sati –– basically to contemplate body,
feeling, mind and Dhamma.
Satipatthana comes from the words sati and patthana or
upatthana. Patthana or upatthana has been variously translated as
foundations, uprisings, applications, establishment, etc.. However,
these translations do not throw any light on the difference between
sati and satipatthana.
Intense state of recollection. When we investigate the suttas we find
that there is a difference between sati and satipatthana. As explained
earlier, sati means recollection. Now patthana possibly comes from
two words, pa and thana. Pa means ‘setting forth’, and also implies
going beyond. Thus it can also mean extreme, intense. Thana means
standing still, and can also mean a state or condition. Thus
satipatthana probably means an intense state of recollection. This
translation of satipatthana seems to agree with the suttas, to which I
shall now refer......................."


http://www.vbgnet.org/resources.asp ............Mindfulness, concentration and recollection by Bhante Dhammavuddho.

:smile:
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Cittasanto
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by Cittasanto »

having skimmed through that document and reading your quote it certainly gives me pause ...

sampajanna is mindfulness??
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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