That's a very unclear sentence; re-state?tiltbillings wrote:Ecxept the problem is that have shown they are different.
[tb: thanks for catching that; corrected version below.]
That's a very unclear sentence; re-state?tiltbillings wrote:Ecxept the problem is that have shown they are different.
Ecxept the problem is that you have not shown they are different. You have not shown much of anything other than you do not like (or seem to understand) the vipassana traditions.Brizzy wrote:
Why would one bother with notion of ""dry insight" as spelled by Buddhaghosa"?
When you can have the notion of the eightfold path (inclusive of jhana) as spelled out by the Buddha.
Hitiltbillings wrote:Ecxept the problem is that you have not shown they are different. You have not shown much of anything other than you do not like (or seem to understand) the vipassana traditions.Brizzy wrote:
Why would one bother with notion of ""dry insight" as spelled by Buddhaghosa"?
When you can have the notion of the eightfold path (inclusive of jhana) as spelled out by the Buddha.
Do you see jhana and samadhi then as synonymous? (since as I'm sure you know, it's Right Samadhi, not Right Jhana)Brizzy wrote:Dry insight - no jhana - sevenfold path
Jhana - full eightfold path
Of course they are different!
The seventh factor of the path is sati not satipatthana. My question revolves around the culmination of sati i.e. satipatthana.jcsuperstar wrote:if jhana and sati were synonymous wouldn't we just have a 7fold path?
Yes.retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Brizzy,
Do you see jhana and samadhi then as synonymous? (since as I'm sure you know, it's Right Samadhi, not Right Jhana)Brizzy wrote:Dry insight - no jhana - sevenfold path
Jhana - full eightfold path
Of course they are different!
Metta,
Retro.
You have not shown anything, making no real argument to even respond to. You certainly do not understand the vipassana traditions. I am waiting for a real argument to respond to here.Brizzy wrote:
I have endeavoured to show they are different, if you don't agree - that's fine, but please be mindful that your last statement was of a personal nature and not dealing with the arguments.
The burden of proof is on the claim that Buddhaghosa is similar, which I think is the contention here. You'll wait forever for an argument to respond to, because others are waiting for a reason to take the word of a Commentary over the Suttas.tiltbillings wrote:You have yet to show that Buddhaghosa differs from the suttas.
Goodness. Commentaries are important, but are hardly the final word on things, but that does not mean that they also cannot get things right.Sobeh wrote:The burden of proof is on the claim that Buddhaghosa is similar, which I think is the contention here. You'll wait forever for an argument to respond to, because others are waiting for a reason to take the word of a Commentary over the Suttas.tiltbillings wrote:You have yet to show that Buddhaghosa differs from the suttas.
The seventh factor is samma sati (right mindfulness) which is defined as satipatthana - the four foundations of mindfulness:Brizzy wrote:The seventh factor of the path is sati not satipatthana.jcsuperstar wrote:if jhana and sati were synonymous wouldn't we just have a 7fold path?
-DN 22 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"And what is right mindfulness? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called right mindfulness...
My understanding of the purity/perfection of sati in Jhana is that sati has already been, from the outset, present as a factor in some degree, developed outside of meditation, but it is obscured by other jhanic factors. It becomes more prevailent as other jhanic factors drop away. It's the same with other factors (like equanimity) which are present to some degree, but not considered "jhanic factors" until unobscured.
My question revolves around the culmination of sati i.e. satipatthana.
The Jhanas in Theravada Buddhist Meditation - Bhante GunaratanaThe meditator in third jhana is also said to be mindful and discerning, which points to another pair of frequently conjoined mental functions. Mindfulness (sati), in this context, means the remembrance of the meditation object, the constant bearing of the object in mind without allowing it to float away. Discernment (sampajañña) is an aspect of wisdom or understanding which scrutinizes the object and grasps its nature free from delusion. Though these two factors were already present even in the first two jhanas, they are first mentioned only in connection with the third since it is here that their efficacy becomes manifest. The two are needed particularly to avoid a return to rapture. Just as a suckling calf, removed from its mother and left unguarded, again approaches the mother, so the happiness of jhana tends to veer towards rapture, its natural partner, if unguarded by mindfulness and discernment (Dhs. A.219). To prevent this and the consequent loss of the third jhana is the task of mindfulness and discernment.
Indeed. This is where I actually begin to favor the Abhidhammic explanations. Meaning I'd look in terms of "right concentration" as a mental factor that would naturally arise for the rather than something that needs to be deliberately practiced.tiltbillings wrote:And that makes my point. Dry insight can lead to ariya, once there jhana would hardly be a problem,Sobeh wrote:Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote this piece which does just such a thing in that it shows how the jhanas are essential to arahantship (and here we mean the first form jhana, or the four formless jhanas). Dry insight can get you sotapanna, but once-returner, non-returner, and arahant have attained the jhanas.tiltbillings wrote:I have yet to see a convincing, irrefutable demolishing of the notion of "dry insight" as spelled by Buddhaghosa.
I agree. Once you're in the stream there's no getting back out - you are on your way to arahantship and I don't see how Jhana is going to be a problem at that point. I hardly think a stream enterer is thinking "oh shoot, I really need to get to work on Jhana now."
but what actually constitutes jhana becomes an interesting question.
Interestingly this small anthology gives another definition of SammasamadhiKenshou wrote:I think that's a possibility. Jhana is only one of the four things that fall under right concentration. #3 & 4 look like the sort of things that would develop in the process of mindfulness practice weather or not someone chooses to engage in jhana practice specifically.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
it is at the begining of the sutta quoted.Noble right concentration
"Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness — is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions."
— MN 117
also #3 shows concentration can lead to mindfulness & allertness (satisampajanna)(3) "And what is the development of concentration that... leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness.
(4) "And what is the development of concentration that... leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents.
"These are the four developments of concentration."
— AN 4.41
But sati is not satipatthana. sati is recollection/awareness - satipatthana is something more....................meindzai wrote:The seventh factor is samma sati (right mindfulness) which is defined as satipatthana - the four foundations of mindfulness:Brizzy wrote:The seventh factor of the path is sati not satipatthana.jcsuperstar wrote:if jhana and sati were synonymous wouldn't we just have a 7fold path?
-DN 22 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"And what is right mindfulness? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called right mindfulness...
-M