Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Kenshou » Sat Apr 24, 2010 5:13 pm

although the parts you mention #3&4 are the development of samadhi not sammasamadhi itself from my reading of the passages


As I understand it, it is implied that these developments of concentration are, or at least in order to be true samma-samadhi, are complemented by the rest of the eightfold path as that quote from MN 117 states. Also notice that the first item of that list, jhana, which is often associated with right samadhi, doesn't have the epithet of "right" attached to it either. But I don't think that this means that they aren't talking about right samadhi here.

But yeah, it doesn't explicitly state that they are right concentration, either. But I think when you take all of the passages together, the picture is fairly clear. Any singleness of mind, weather focused on the development of jhana, or in contemplation of the aggregates or of feelings, or all of them together, when supported by the rest of the path, becomes right concentration.

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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Apr 24, 2010 5:57 pm

Kenshou wrote:
although the parts you mention #3&4 are the development of samadhi not sammasamadhi itself from my reading of the passages


As I understand it, it is implied that these developments of concentration are, or at least in order to be true samma-samadhi, are complemented by the rest of the eightfold path as that quote from MN 117 states. Also notice that the first item of that list, jhana, which is often associated with right samadhi, doesn't have the epithet of "right" attached to it either. But I don't think that this means that they aren't talking about right samadhi here.

But yeah, it doesn't explicitly state that they are right concentration, either. But I think when you take all of the passages together, the picture is fairly clear. Any singleness of mind, weather focused on the development of jhana, or in contemplation of the aggregates or of feelings, or all of them together, when supported by the rest of the path, becomes right concentration.


I agree here, all I was aiming at pointing out was the passages don't say explicitly....
I had looked for a quote a day or so ago looking for where it gives an alternative definition of sammasamadhi, and until I saw the A2I doc couldn't hadn#t found one, but didn't spend much time looking tbh.

ps I asked the same and still waiting.
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Brizzy » Sun Apr 25, 2010 10:19 am

Manapa wrote:having skimmed through that document and reading your quote it certainly gives me pause ...

sampajanna is mindfulness??


"Critical to Right Mindfulness' purpose (Nyanaponika)

In a publicly available correspondence between Bhikkhu Bodhi and B. Alan Wallace, Bodhi has described Ven. Nyanaponika Thera's views on "right mindfulness" and sampajañña in the following fashion:

... I should add that Ven. Nyanaponika himself did not regard “bare attention” as capturing the complete significance of satipaṭṭhāna, but as representing only one phase, the initial phase, in the meditative development of right mindfulness. He held that in the proper practice of right mindfulness, sati has to be integrated with sampajañña, clear comprehension, and it is only when these two work together that right mindfulness can fulfill its intended purpose.[12] "


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampaja%C3%B1%C3%B1a

I would say that in the Buddha's teaching sampajanna would be a coexistent of sati.

http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books7/Acharn_Plien_Sati-Sampajanna_Mindfulness-Awareness.pdf

:smile:
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Apr 25, 2010 2:07 pm

did I say sampajanna was not needed?

the reliability of that document for me is suspect due to several quirks noticed in a quick scim through.
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"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Brizzy » Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:20 pm

Manapa wrote:did I say sampajanna was not needed?

No.

the reliability of that document for me is suspect due to several quirks noticed in a quick scim through.


Why?

:smile:
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:39 pm

same reason I wouldn't find a math textbook reliable when it states 1+1=2.5 as a correct equation.
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"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Brizzy » Mon Apr 26, 2010 8:27 am

Manapa wrote:same reason I wouldn't find a math textbook reliable when it states 1+1=2.5 as a correct equation.


I'm sorry, I still don't know specifically what you are objecting to.

:smile:
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:06 pm

I find that document unreliable it is as simple as that.

it is misleading due to the translation it uses of words, and its dealing with words as the same which are different this is blatently obvious just with the two quotes from it you and myself provided, inaccurate = unreliable

1 + 1 = 2.5 = wrong
1 + 1 = 2 = correct


what are you trying to prove?
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Brizzy » Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:33 am

Manapa wrote:I find that document unreliable it is as simple as that.

it is misleading due to the translation it uses of words, and its dealing with words as the same which are different this is blatently obvious just with the two quotes from it you and myself provided, inaccurate = unreliable

1 + 1 = 2.5 = wrong
1 + 1 = 2 = correct


what are you trying to prove?


Nothing.

You just mentioned that you found the document unreliable and I was asking why? I am really not trying to "prove" anything.

:smile:
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:38 am

Brizzy wrote:.

You just mentioned that you found the document unreliable and I was asking why? I am really not trying to "prove" anything.

In relation this this thread you started, as with your other threads, you do seem be agenda driven.
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Brizzy » Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:46 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Brizzy wrote:.

You just mentioned that you found the document unreliable and I was asking why? I am really not trying to "prove" anything.

In relation this this thread you started, as with your other threads, you do seem be agenda driven.


WOW! I can't ask a question, without "having an agenda" I think the metta that I feel coming from vipassana practitioner's is the only thing that keeps me going.

:smile:
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:55 am

Brizzy wrote:
WOW! I can't ask a question, without "having an agenda" I think the metta that I feel coming from vipassana practitioner's is the only thing that keeps me going.

It is not so much asking a question, but it is how you structured the questions you have asked - and much of your responses - and this response rather makes it clear - agenda. Having an agenda, however, does not negate the questions ask, so ask away. And thanks for feeling the metta.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Brizzy » Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:08 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Brizzy wrote:
WOW! I can't ask a question, without "having an agenda" I think the metta that I feel coming from vipassana practitioner's is the only thing that keeps me going.

It is not so much asking a question, but it is how you structured the questions you have asked - and much of your responses - and this response rather makes it clear - agenda. Having an agenda, however, does not negate the questions ask, so ask away. And thanks for feeling the metta.


No worries.

:smile:
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:48 pm

Brizzy wrote:
Nothing.

You just mentioned that you found the document unreliable and I was asking why? I am really not trying to "prove" anything.

:smile:


you have been asked this before on this thread, by myself and others, you definitely appear to be trying to prove something or working with an agenda.

I gave an example when I said I found that document unreliable, nothing more needed to be added, I am not going to pick through a document to slam it.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Brizzy » Wed Apr 28, 2010 10:59 am

Manapa wrote:
Brizzy wrote:
Nothing.

You just mentioned that you found the document unreliable and I was asking why? I am really not trying to "prove" anything.

:smile:


you have been asked this before on this thread, by myself and others, you definitely appear to be trying to prove something or working with an agenda.

I gave an example when I said I found that document unreliable, nothing more needed to be added, I am not going to pick through a document to slam it.


You queried "sampajanna is mindfulness?"


Mindfulness is an english word that is used for "sati"

Now mindfulness these days, has been reduced to bare attention, the document seems to be assigning sampajanna for mindfulness or constant attention. You actually mentioned there were several inaccuracies but mentioned only one. I have no "agenda" and if you dont want to read the document - cool - but you can hardly make informed observations if you dont.

:smile:
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:53 pm

There was no query, no claiming something wasn't needed, and nothing else implied!

try reading what I actually put.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Brizzy » Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:24 am

Manapa wrote:There was no query, no claiming something wasn't needed, and nothing else implied!

try reading what I actually put.


Of course you are correct. The only thing you stated was that a document you had "a quick scim through" was unreliable due to several quirks. I was merely asking what they were - No Agendas. However it is probably best if I stop asking you what they were.

:smile:
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:16 pm

Brizzy wrote:
Manapa wrote:There was no query, no claiming something wasn't needed, and nothing else implied!

try reading what I actually put.


Of course you are correct. The only thing you stated was that a document you had "a quick scim through" was unreliable due to several quirks. I was merely asking what they were - No Agendas. However it is probably best if I stop asking you what they were.

:smile:


well if I point out one, and one is in your own quote, there should be no need, they were obvious, all you proceded to do was give counter arguments to what wasn't being argued against, that makes you look more and more like you are trying to prove something, or have an agenda.

you don't have to read something cover to cover analysing every word to see if it meet a certain standard of reliability, same way you don't need to walk all the way into a pig sty to know how it smells. if you want to trash things that is great, but don't expect others to do more than they feel is necessary.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby retrofuturist » Sun May 02, 2010 1:16 am

Greetings,

Thanks to jc for putting me onto this short, yet relevant talk from venerable Gunaratna



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Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


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One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Postby Ben » Sun May 02, 2010 1:47 am

Nice talk,thanks for posting the video url, Retro!
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