How do we know?

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m0rl0ck
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How do we know?

Post by m0rl0ck »

If everything is void of own-being, how do we know?

As in the process of knowing ourselves and the world.

Not in the sense of "i am this or that person named *****" but in the sense of bare awareness.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
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BlackBird
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Re: How do we know?

Post by BlackBird »

We don't know, that's the reason we practice the Noble Eightfold Path ;)

metta
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'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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retrofuturist
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Re: How do we know?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings m0rl0ck,
m0rl0ck wrote:If everything is void of own-being, how do we know?
Anatta is a logical consequence of anicca.

It's easy enough to appreciate the anicca nature of things like leaves and ice, but to "turn inside" and see it in relation to one's own experience is another thing altogether.

You may be interested in this topic...

Anatta as the basis for insight - What object? What benefit?
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=3529" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Dan74
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Re: How do we know?

Post by Dan74 »

In the sense of "bare awareness" this not knowing is indeed it. Letting go of all clinging, including clinging to khandas, what is there to know?
_/|\_
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Goofaholix
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Re: How do we know?

Post by Goofaholix »

Dan74 wrote:In the sense of "bare awareness" this not knowing is indeed it. Letting go of all clinging, including clinging to khandas, what is there to know?
Yes, probably this inner compulsion, this strong need that we have to "know" and build a mental construct that explains everything is evidence that deep down inside we know it's all empty and it scares us.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
alan
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Re: How do we know?

Post by alan »

Don't understand the question.
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ground
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Re: How do we know?

Post by ground »

m0rl0ck wrote:If everything is void of own-being, how do we know?
As in the process of knowing ourselves and the world.

Not in the sense of "i am this or that person named *****" but in the sense of bare awareness.
Exactly because everything is a dependent arising, i.e. "void of own-being" we are able know. We know through validating experience.

Kind regards
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Zom
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Re: How do we know?

Post by Zom »

I like this sutta very much on this topic -))
"Lord, who craves?"

"Not a valid question," the Blessed One said. "I don't say 'craves.' If I were to say 'craves,' then 'Who craves?' would be a valid question. But I don't say that. When I don't say that, the valid question is 'From what as a requisite condition comes craving?' And the valid answer is, 'From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance.'"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
PeterB
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Re: How do we know?

Post by PeterB »

Zom wrote:I like this sutta very much on this topic -))
"Lord, who craves?"

"Not a valid question," the Blessed One said. "I don't say 'craves.' If I were to say 'craves,' then 'Who craves?' would be a valid question. But I don't say that. When I don't say that, the valid question is 'From what as a requisite condition comes craving?' And the valid answer is, 'From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance.'"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
:anjali:
He said it first. ( at least in our era ) He said it best.
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Aloka
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Re: How do we know?

Post by Aloka »

m0rl0ck wrote:If everything is void of own-being, how do we know?

As in the process of knowing ourselves and the world.

Not in the sense of "i am this or that person named *****" but in the sense of bare awareness.

Meditation is always helpful - but I wonder if SN 22.9 Phena Sutta might possibly be worth looking at, M0rl0ck.

On one occasion the Blessed One was staying among the Ayojjhans on the banks of the Ganges River. There he addressed the monks: "Monks, suppose that a large glob of foam were floating down this Ganges River, and a man with good eyesight were to see it, observe it, & appropriately examine it. To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in a glob of foam? In the same way, a monk sees, observes, & appropriately examines any form that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near. To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in form?

"Now suppose that in the autumn — when it's raining in fat, heavy drops — a water bubble were to appear & disappear on the water, and a man with good eyesight were to see it, observe it, & appropriately examine it. To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in a water bubble? In the same way, a monk sees, observes, & appropriately examines any feeling that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near. To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in feeling?

Continued : http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


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m0rl0ck
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Re: How do we know?

Post by m0rl0ck »

TMingyur wrote: Exactly because everything is a dependent arising, i.e. "void of own-being" we are able know. We know through validating experience.

Kind regards
So am i correct in gleaning from this that you are suggesting something like the metaphor of two mirrors facing each other?
A dynamic relationship of subject and object exchanging themselves for each other? Knowingness arising from that ?

Imo ts the best thing anybody has said so far on the subject, either at dharmawheel or here. At least the best thing im able to understand :) That is if im getting your meaning.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
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ground
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Re: How do we know?

Post by ground »

m0rl0ck wrote:
TMingyur wrote: Exactly because everything is a dependent arising, i.e. "void of own-being" we are able know. We know through validating experience.

Kind regards
So am i correct in gleaning from this that you are suggesting something like the metaphor of two mirrors facing each other?
A dynamic relationship of subject and object exchanging themselves for each other? Knowingness arising from that ?
If you can find some "truth" in this then fine. However I do not feel being able to say "Yes the metaphor you are suggesting is what I wanted to express." simply because I used different expressions and I did not have such a metaphor in mind when I wrote this.
I would however concede that "dependent arising" implies "dynamics" and that it implies some sort of "interdepence" in the context of talking about the "knowing subject" and the "object known". This interdependence may also be likened to an iterative process which does not necessarily have to cover "longer" periods of time but may be completed "instantaneously" too, depending on circumstances.
Caution: At first glance it may appear as if "ultimately" "knowing subject" and "object known" are no different. But this is an invalid conclusion. However the conclusion that "ultimately" they are different is invalid too.

Kind regards
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m0rl0ck
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Re: How do we know?

Post by m0rl0ck »

TMingyur wrote: ... At first glance it may appear as if "ultimately" "knowing subject" and "object known" are no different. But this is an invalid conclusion. However the conclusion that "ultimately" they are different is invalid too.
Kind regards
Yeah that sounds right :)
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
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