If a stream-winner...

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Reductor
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If a stream-winner...

Postby Reductor » Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:29 am

If a person were to claim on this board that they are a stream-winner, what would your thought be on that? And how would you respond on the forum itself?

It seems that people don't want to be mistaken as a stream-winner (or higher), or that those phrases that might be associated with entering the path are responded to with some venom.

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Ben
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby Ben » Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:49 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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David N. Snyder
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby David N. Snyder » Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:15 am

I agree with Ben that a monk and most likely a lay person as well, would probably have no interest in proclaiming Noble status. However, having said that it should be noted that conceit and even some ignorance is not eradicated until one is an Arahant. Even anagamis have some conceit, some sense desires, and some ignorance remaining.

I have met a few people who appeared to be highly realized, but never made any claim or even hint to it.

A Noble One obviously is strong in virtue and wholesome conduct and does not intentionally break any of the five precepts. And also they will no longer have any atta or self-view.
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Kokoro
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby Kokoro » Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:23 am

Personally I don't think it would be to the benefit of anyone for one to claim stream-entry on a forum or to anyone for that matter other than to an ordained member of the Sangha for the purpose of seeking further instruction or advice. Such a claim, in my humble opinion, is likely to invoke jealousy, envy or disbelief from others and challenges to bring forth evidence.
I do think though when one attains stream-entry, it may become apparent in their person, their presence alone would prove stream-entry, and so at that point announcing one's attainment would prove redundant and unnecessary.

May such attainment become apparent in all beings.

:anjali:

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retrofuturist
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:40 am

Greetings,

I have mixed feeling about this.

If somewhere did make such a proclamation, either directly or by hint, I would probably go through a similar review process such as that mentioned by Ben. I would certainly consider what I've seen in their postings to date, with a particular eye for a stable and consistent temperament. Does their speech and behaviour accord with someone who realises the noble truths? Or do they crack it, get grumpy, get angry and lose the plot on a regular basis? Sure, nobody is pure until they attain arahantship, but most people I've seen give such a hint (or come straight out and say it) tend to be amongst the most easily irritable and pompous posters I've seen online. I will say most, because it's certainly not all.

This approach is modelled on this sutta...

AN 4.192: Thana Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

I don't discount the possibility of stream-entry, so in some ways I would greet such an announcement with sympathetic joy, if I believed it, and I would take a keen interest in what that person posted to see whether it accorded with the suttas and with my personal experience.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Goofaholix
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby Goofaholix » Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:13 am

I'm not convinced someone on the path necessarily knows how far they have come nor what status they might be able to lay claim to.

If we were to assume however that someone did know, then what would be the purpose of proclaiming it in cyberspace? I can think of no reason with a good motivation.

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Ben
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby Ben » Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:31 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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retrofuturist
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:37 am

Greetings,

Speaking of suttas for the wise, here's a good collection of extracts relating to Stream Entry for your perusal...

Stream Entry: Part 1: The Way to Stream-entry
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/stream.html

Stream Entry: Part 2: Stream-entry and After
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/stream2.html

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

Reductor
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby Reductor » Fri Apr 30, 2010 6:11 am


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retrofuturist
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Apr 30, 2010 6:28 am

Greetings thereductor,

One element you may not have considered in the above is that such questioning is also for the benefit of the potential stream-entrant in the sense that they might be deluded about their attainment, and may falsely believe themselves to be a stream-entrant when in fact they're not. Indeed, looking at some of the aspects of what constitutes stream-entry, such as that in those compendiums I provided links to, it would be quite easy to interpret these in such a way that one believed they indeed were a stream-entrant. Again, differences in the Sutta, Abhidhamma and Commentarial perspectives only go to confuse things further...

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

Reductor
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby Reductor » Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:18 am


PeterB
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby PeterB » Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:33 am

There is absolutely no way that we can ascertain even someones mundane consciousness from a cyber-personality , that in many cases tends to take on a life of its own.
Its a matter of easy observation for example that those posters who most regularly espouse peace and love on Buddhist websites are the quickest to take offense on their own or someone elses behalf.. and the ones most likely to remember grudges.. :smile:
T'was ever thus.
For a number of reasons I tend assume without proof to the contrary that any claim to attainment is the result of delusion.
Not to even speak of Stream Winning...I am highly suspicious even of hints or claims to knowledge of the Jhanas.
Having seen the defensiveness of those who make such claims.
After a number of decades practising Dhamma I am just getting a clear view of the heights of the mountains we are attempting to climb.
They soar beyond our mundane view.
Am I downhearted ?
No. Its one step at a time.

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Annapurna
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby Annapurna » Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:46 am

Last edited by Annapurna on Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/

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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby Reductor » Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:48 am


PeterB
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby PeterB » Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:08 am

I wasnt making a personalised statement thereductor. I am just saying that it can be observed on any Buddhist website any month that those who claim supramundane states are frequently the ones who two days later are having a hissy fit about something.. :smile:
Just as those who identify Buddhadhamma with one particular emotional asana i.e. being "nice". ( to borrow a term, asana, from yoga ) are the ones who frequently carry grudge matches from one thread or even one WEBSITE to another :D

I am not making these observations from a position of superiority. When i say that I have no attainments it is not false modesty.. I have hissy fits and get annoyed.
But i am not claiming knowledge of supramundane states... :smile:
Last edited by PeterB on Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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acinteyyo
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby acinteyyo » Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:27 am

Last edited by acinteyyo on Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby PeterB » Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:29 am

I think you are right Acintteyyo.

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retrofuturist
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:00 am

Greetings acinteyyo,

Nice quote... and what could they say anyway that the Buddha hasn't said already? Explaining or depicting that which is inherently negative (in that it constitutes the absence of conditioned things) could not be done any better than with terms like unbinding, the deathless, the unconditioned, and so on. People are so used to thinking in terms of positives, and therefore often can't understand why nibbana isn't depicted accordingly.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby Sylvester » Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:19 am

Hmm, the layman Citta did not shy away from telling Acelakassapa that the Buddha would confirm his Anagamin status. I think this is in the Citta Samyutta of the SN.

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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby Annapurna » Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:08 am

http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/


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