If a stream-winner...

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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acinteyyo
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by acinteyyo »

It wouldn't make any sense to proclaim that, would it?
Because as soon as one wrote or said it (or using any other form of communication), it would mean nothing. Somebody may receive it but then has to interpret it. But one can only interpret something correctly when oneself has experienced it and even then most of the time it's still difficult to interpret our ways of communication correctly, because our means for communication are simply inappropriate and often misleading, because of its cabability of transmitting only very few content of experienced phenomena.
Suppose I would proclaim being a sotapanna. And now? Whose turn is it now to believe or not believe it? Yours and in the end it keeps on being "not for sure", whatever you'll believe. Suppose I proclaim not being a sotapanna. And now? Same thing.... just a waste of time.
I think one shouldn't give much attention to anyones supposed attainments. One would be better to recollect the Dhamma in ones own mind and keep on practicing.
Just a few thoughts... don't mind me ;)

best wishes, acinteyyo

edit:
a quote from the book "Gifts he left behind - The Dhamma legacy of Ajahn Dun Atulo"
Above & beyond words
A well-read layman was conversing with Luang Pu, saying, "I firmly believe that in our present day and age there are not just a few monks who have practiced to the point of reaching the paths, fruitions, and nibbana. So why don't they make their knowledge public, so that those who are interested in the practice will know of the levels of Dhamma they have attained, as a way of giving them encouragement and hope so that they'll accelerate their efforts to the utmost of their ability?"
Luang Pu answered,
"Those who have awakened don't talk of what they've awakened to, because it lies above and beyond all words."
Last edited by acinteyyo on Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
PeterB
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by PeterB »

I think you are right Acintteyyo.
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retrofuturist
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings acinteyyo,

Nice quote... and what could they say anyway that the Buddha hasn't said already? Explaining or depicting that which is inherently negative (in that it constitutes the absence of conditioned things) could not be done any better than with terms like unbinding, the deathless, the unconditioned, and so on. People are so used to thinking in terms of positives, and therefore often can't understand why nibbana isn't depicted accordingly.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Sylvester
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by Sylvester »

Hmm, the layman Citta did not shy away from telling Acelakassapa that the Buddha would confirm his Anagamin status. I think this is in the Citta Samyutta of the SN.
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Annapurna
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by Annapurna »

PeterB wrote:I think you are right Acintteyyo.
Me too.
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Chula
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by Chula »

David N. Snyder wrote:Even anagamis have ... some sense desires.
A little off-topic, but wanted to make a small correction: anāgāmī's do no have any sense desire - just desire for form (rūparāga) and desire for the formless (arūparāga).
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Wind
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by Wind »

This might not add to the discussion but I personally prefer the term "stream-enterer" rather than "stream-winner". The word "winner" puts too much emphases on a prize of some sorts while "enterer" place more emphasis on accomplishing an important step on the path.
Freawaru
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by Freawaru »

thereductor wrote:If a person were to claim on this board that they are a stream-winner, what would your thought be on that? And how would you respond on the forum itself?

It seems that people don't want to be mistaken as a stream-winner (or higher), or that those phrases that might be associated with entering the path are responded to with some venom.
I think there would be only one reason for an aryan to claim "aryanship": if it would increase the effort of people. If the reaction would be: if THAT person can reach sotapanna it can't be so hard, I can do it, too. If you ask me too many practitioners block themselves by considering themselves not able enough.

But I doubt this would be the reaction. I recall Ven. Nanavira Thera's experience with it: everybody placing him on some kind of pedestal ! :shrug:
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Wind
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by Wind »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
I would certainly consider what I've seen in their postings to date, with a particular eye for a stable and consistent temperament. Does their speech and behaviour accord with someone who realises the noble truths?
Wouldn't their past posting be less relevant prior to their declaration as indicators of their attainments? A person who realises the noble truth should be expected to have a new found temperament so I would put more weight on his future posting over a long period to see if it indeed reflect those of the noble ones rather than discounting their attainments simply because of their past misdeeds, as we know before one becomes stream-enterer they are still subject to wrong views and wrong actions.
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acinteyyo
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by acinteyyo »

Wind wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
I would certainly consider what I've seen in their postings to date, with a particular eye for a stable and consistent temperament. Does their speech and behaviour accord with someone who realises the noble truths?
Wouldn't their past posting be less relevant prior to their declaration as indicators of their attainments? A person who realises the noble truth should be expected to have a new found temperament so I would put more weight on his future posting over a long period to see if it indeed reflect those of the noble ones rather than discounting their attainments simply because of their past misdeeds, as we know before one becomes stream-enterer they are still subject to wrong views and wrong actions.
And how do you suppose to be able to distinguish what is ill spoken from what is well spoken, if not being at least a sotapanna yourself? A puthujjana doesn't have right view, how could he identify a noble person. It would be nothing else but supposition. Cuz as I said, no matter how much you keep looking how one behaves, finally what you may think he is or is not, this will be not for sure, as long as you don't know the Dhamma for yourself.
best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
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Wind
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by Wind »

acinteyyo wrote:
Wind wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
I would certainly consider what I've seen in their postings to date, with a particular eye for a stable and consistent temperament. Does their speech and behaviour accord with someone who realises the noble truths?
Wouldn't their past posting be less relevant prior to their declaration as indicators of their attainments? A person who realises the noble truth should be expected to have a new found temperament so I would put more weight on his future posting over a long period to see if it indeed reflect those of the noble ones rather than discounting their attainments simply because of their past misdeeds, as we know before one becomes stream-enterer they are still subject to wrong views and wrong actions.
And how do you suppose to be able to distinguish what is ill spoken from what is well spoken, if not being at least a sotapanna yourself? A puthujjana doesn't have right view, how could he identify a noble person. It would be nothing else but supposition. Cuz as I said, no matter how much you keep looking how one behaves, finally what you may think he is or is not, this will be not for sure, as long as you don't know the Dhamma for yourself.
best wishes, acinteyyo
I agree. No amount of speculation can completely erase one's doubts except when they accomplish it themselves.
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Annapurna
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by Annapurna »

I think we feel what is well said, because we won't resist it, but open up even to criticism.

The Buddha spoke in this way. Somebody not as accomplished may not be able to discern why he is pleased though.


With metta,

Annapurna
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Dhammabodhi
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by Dhammabodhi »

Hello,

Talking of claiming attainment of Jhanas, there are some noble people here who have done this, and to be sure I've got immense inspiration and motivation from their posts. I'm "highly underqualified" (if there is such a term) to judge someone's ariya status even if I knew him/her personally, let alone in this forum (except of course, when some people make such claims and when people start asking question go into a raging madness) . So, I'll keep quiet. :coffee:

Sorry if I'm repeating myself, but I can't begin to express how awe-inspiring it is for me to be in this forum. Thank you, all you noble people!! :anjali:

Metta,
Dhammabodhi

P.S: Sorry for my little rant there. :)
"Take rest, take rest."-S.N.Goenka
PeterB
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by PeterB »

Not at all a rant Dhammabodhi.. :anjali:
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Dan74
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by Dan74 »

Dhammabodhi wrote:Thank you, all you noble people!! :anjali:

Metta,
Dhammabodhi
You are welcome! :sage:

Now if you start questioning me, I may go into a raging madness, but it'll be a noble raging madness.

:buddha1:
_/|\_
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