Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
pt1
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Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Post by pt1 »

Hi tilt,

Yes, I'm primarily concerned with this statement:
tiltbillings wrote:Actually, dhammas are not the object of awareness, either.
as I don't think that's what the texts are saying, but that they are closer to saying something like:
tiltbillings wrote:...there are little bits of existing things that pop into existence because of conditions and pop out of existence because of a change in conditions
Of course, I think a great precision is needed when using the terms "exist/don't exist" and "dhamma" together, which is why I think it deserves a thread of its own where this stuff can be explored in detail.

I have no objection to the other part of the message:
tiltbillings wrote: Dhammas are how we can talk about our experience after the fact, which means that "dhamma" is a conceptual structure used for talking about a type of meditative experience.
and
tiltbillings wrote:Are you saying that calling a bit of experience a "dhamma" is not using a conceptual structure? A conceptual structure certainly can be used in practice.

because I think we agreed before that both conventional or ultimate terminology can be used when describing the experience of insight.

And I agree that the problem has to do with:
tiltbillings wrote:assuming that they [pt: dhammas] are referring to existent things and that experience is made up of real little real bits
except that I believe that assuming this would be correct, within constraints described in the thread I started.

Best wishes
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Virgo
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Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Post by Virgo »

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:
Hi David. I believe I've explained this already. A rock is a concept. Concepts are never the object of satipatthana, only paramattha dhammas are.
Actually, dhammas are not the object of awareness, either. Dhammas are how we can talk about our experience after the fact, which means that "dhamma" is a conceptual structure used for talking about a type of meditative experience.
Actually every citta has an object, wether paramattha or conceptual.

That you disagree with Abhidhamma is your own perogative; however, it might be better if you said something like, "I know abhidhamma says every citta has an object, but I disagree and I feel it is this way", or even, "that seems ridiculous to me; I think it is this way", or just, "how does abhidhamma explain this?"

But you always seem to say something along the lines of, "no, no, this is how it works, objects are just changing experience, citta doesn't have an object". Being that you are a moderator you should show due respect to the traditional way of the school of the board you moderate, even if you disagree with the idea and choose to put forth your disagreements.

Kevin
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Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Post by tiltbillings »

pt1 wrote:Hi tilt,

Yes, I'm primarily concerned with this statement:
tiltbillings wrote:Actually, dhammas are not the object of awareness, either.
as I don't think that's what the texts are saying, but that they are closer to saying something like:
Which texts?

A feeling - a vedanā - is experienced during a meditation session. If I label it it during that session, that is using a concept, and that labelling happens after the time of experiencing it. While the time between the initial experience of the vedanā and the labelling might be some very small fraction of a second, it still happens after the fact of the intial experience and the labelling still involves using a concept. The labelling is not the direct experience. Direct experience is not conceptual, does not involve to use of language.

During the duration of the vedanā, if we are attending without comment, with a clear, concentrated mindful mind (itself a process), is any instance of that vedanā exactly the same as any other? Not likely, for the obvious reasons it cannot be. While the general characteristics of the conditions that gives what can be called a vedanā can be seen to persist for a period, but there is nothing about any of this, as experienced, that is staic or individual.

The use of concepts/laguage, which is static and individual, can help us look at what we experience, but the mistake is the assumption of the nature of the concepts - static and individual - into the actual experience, especially when it is done not as a meditative, concntrated mindfulness practice, but as an intellectual, conceptual process.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
pt1
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Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Post by pt1 »

Hi tilt,

Thanks for your reply.
tiltbillings wrote:Which texts?
I've quoted a few in that other thread, please see there.

I'm sorry, I'm very tired now, need to go to sleep, so will address the rest of your post tomorrow - in particular I have a feeling we're just using the same terms differently, what might be the major part of disagreement. Will try and see tomorrow in more detail.

Best wishes
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Virgo
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Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Post by Virgo »

tiltbillings wrote:
pt1 wrote:Hi tilt,

Yes, I'm primarily concerned with this statement:
tiltbillings wrote:Actually, dhammas are not the object of awareness, either.
as I don't think that's what the texts are saying, but that they are closer to saying something like:
Which texts?

A feeling - a vedanā - is experienced during a meditation session. If I label it it during that session, that is using a concept, and that labelling happens after the time of experiencing it. While the time between the initial experience of the vedanā and the labelling might be some very small fraction of a second, it still happens after the fact of the intial experience and the labelling still involves using a concept. The labelling is not the direct experience. Direct experience is not conceptual, does not involve to use of language.

During the duration of the vedanā, if we are attending without comment, with a clear, concentrated mindful mindful mind (itself a process), is any instance of that vedanā exactly the same as any other? Not likely, for the obvious reasons it cannot be. While the general characteristics of the conditions that gives what can be called a vedanā can be seen to persist for a period, but there is nothing about any of this, as experienced, that is staic or individual.
Exactly! That is why it is the opinion of various abhidhammikas that these modern "vipassana systems" actually miss the mark. It is for those very reasons. Satipatthana does not occur on concepts. When you notice that you have a feeling, or a sensation, and you try to "see" it, know it, you've missed the mark. It is gone. You are just having sanna (perception) of a concept about a dhamma that is gone. That does not mean there is no merit in the systems, but they miss the mark.

On the other hand, wisdom on the coneptual level can build up and become firm in the citta (see the link I gave before to Natrual Decisive Support Condition, one of the Conditions explaioned in the Patthana). That conceptual wisdom can be firm such that panna can arise along with paramattha dhammas and be on the level to know it as the dhamma is congnized by nama. That is satipatthana. If wisdom is developed, you don't have to study. All you have to do is hear some dhamma, or understand it, or emerge from jhana and review the mental factors. If you don't have wisdom, understanding of anatta has to become firm. This way wisdom is developed to the degree before a dhamma arises and it can know it. That is main reason why abhidhamma is useful -- because people of our day and age who have strong self-view can benefit from ultimate terms and more and more details about how mind and matter work so they can see plainly just hot anatta and impersonal all processes are. With this understanding, wisdom can develop.

Kevin
Last edited by Virgo on Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Post by tiltbillings »

Virgo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:
Hi David. I believe I've explained this already. A rock is a concept. Concepts are never the object of satipatthana, only paramattha dhammas are.
Actually, dhammas are not the object of awareness, either. Dhammas are how we can talk about our experience after the fact, which means that "dhamma" is a conceptual structure used for talking about a type of meditative experience.
Actually every citta has an object, wether paramattha or conceptual.

That you disagree with Abhidhamma is your own perogative;
I disagree with your interpretation of the Abhidhamma, and you have not shown anything here that would compel anyone to understand the Abhidhamma Pitaka texts as the form of static Platonism you and NVG have suggested it is. Also, you are not the arbiter of the correct interpretation of what the Abhidhamma Pitaka teaches. You are offering an opinion here, just am I.
citta doesn't have an object"
I never said that, but I would never agree with your grossly static interpretation of that.
Being that you are a moderator you should show due respect to the traditional way of the school of the board you moderate, even if you disagree with the idea and choose to put forth your disagreements.
Being a moderator has nothing to do with any opinion I voice as a participant of any thread. Also, I have seen no evidence from you that the Sujin interpretation is in line with traditional Theravadin understanding of the Abhidhamma.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Virgo
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Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Post by Virgo »

tiltbillings wrote:I disagree with your interpretation of the Abhidhamma,
My understanding of dhamma is much more traditional than you think. Sujin's is as well.

Kevin
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tiltbillings
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Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Post by tiltbillings »

Virgo wrote: Exactly! That is why it is the opinion of various abhidhammikas that these modern "vipassana systems" actually miss the mark.
Not at all. They are very much on target, recognoizing the utility of concepts without getting lost in conceptual forest that turns the Abhidhamma into a static form of Platonism, as you and NVG have espoused.
It is for those very reasons. Satipatthana does not occur on concepts. When you notice that you have a feeling, or a sensation, and you try to "see" it, know it, you've missed the mark.
You do not have a clue as to what you are talking about it. There is no need to 'try to "see" it, know it." The labelling of the Mahasi Sayadaw style is a tool to have develop constancy of mind, concentration and mindfulness/awareness, and in that it is very effective; however, it is something that is dropped. One simply attends to the rises and fall of experience without comment. No need to try to see or know anything. Experience cannot be seen as it is, without comment (comment: the coloring of experience via concepts), without the cultivation of concentration and awareness/mindfulness, which the Mahasi Sayadaw and U Ba Khin methods are very good at cultivating.
On the other hand, wisdom on the coneptual level can build up and become firm in the citta (see the link I gave before to Natrual Decisive Support Condition, one of the Conditions explaioned in the Patthana).
That is a very limited practice, all to easy to fool one's self. There is no seeing directly the very rise and fall of our very subtle experience with such a practice. All to easy, using concepts, to fall into coloring everything by conceptual expectations rather than seeing by direct experience.
That conceptual wisdom can be firm such that panna can arise along with paramattha dhammas and be on the level to know it as the dhamma is congnized by nama. That is satipatthana.
There is nothing here but conceptual structure built upon conceptual structures - trying to think your way out of samsara.
If wisdom is developed, you don't have to study. All you have to do is hear some dhamma, or understand it, or emerge from jhana and review the mental factors. If you don't have wisdom, understanding of anatta has to become firm.
But I wonder why, then, we have from you and NVG an interpretation of the Buddha's teachings that makes it look like Platonism.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Post by tiltbillings »

Virgo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:I disagree with your interpretation of the Abhidhamma,
My understanding of dhamma is much more traditional than you think. Sujin's is as well.
Not that you have shown.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Post by tiltbillings »

Plato's Cave
The objects that we see, according to Plato, are not real, but literally mimic the real Forms. In the allegory of the cave expressed in Republic, the things we ordinarily perceive in the world are characterized as shadows of the real things, which we do not perceive directly. That which the observer understands when he views the world mimics the archetypes of the many types and properties (that is, of universals) of things we see all around us. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_Forms" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Buddhist Platonism:
Concepts don't have any characteristics. Take the concept of "the world". Yours and my concept are different, very different. They are "shadows" of realities according to the Dispeller of Delusion. http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... b2c#p62888" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Nina Van Gorkom states:

"The “Abhidhammattha Sangaha��? a compendium of the Abhidhamma composed
in India at a later time, states that concepts are only shadows of
realities. When we watch T.V., we see projected images of people and
we know that through the eyesense only visible object is seen, no
people. Also when we look at the persons we meet, only colour is
experienced through the eyesense. In the ultimate sense there are no
people. Although they seem very real they are only shadows of what is
really there.
The truth is different from what we always assumed.
What we take for a person are only nåmas and rúpas that arise and
fall away. So long as we have not realized the momentary arising and
falling away of nåma and rúpa we continue to believe in a lasting self."

She is an authority on Abhidhamma. So that should be sufficient.

http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... b2c#p62932" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Concepts don't have any characteristics," says Kevin, but if that were true concepts would have no meaning or function. A concept is a cognitive unit of meaning— an abstract idea or a mental symbol sometimes defined as a "unit of knowledge," built from other units which act as a concept's characteristics. A concept is typically associated with a corresponding representation in a language or symbology such as a single meaning of a term. - http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... clnk&gl=us" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"She is an authority on Abhidhamma. So that should be sufficient," says Kevin, but such an appeal to authority is not a valid argument.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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acinteyyo
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Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Post by acinteyyo »

Tilt and Virgo let me give you some advice: restrain yourselves.
You sound like this:
SN56.9 wrote:"Monks, do not wage wordy warfare, saying: 'You don't understand this Dhamma and discipline, I understand this Dhamma and discipline'; 'How could you understand it? You have fallen into wrong practices: I have the right practice'; 'You have said afterwards what you should have said first, and you have said first what you should have said afterwards';1 'What I say is consistent, what you say isn't'; 'What you have thought out for so long is entirely reversed'; 'Your statement is refuted'; 'You are talking rubbish!'; 'You are in the wrong'; 'Get out of that if you can!'

"Why should you not do this? Such talk, monks, is not related to the goal, it is not fundamental to the holy life, does not conduce to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, tranquillity, higher knowledge, enlightenment or to Nibbana. When you have discussions, monks, you should discuss Suffering, the Arising of Suffering, its Cessation, and the Path that leads to its Cessation. Why is that? Because such talk is related to the goal... it conduces to disenchantment... to Nibbana. This is the task you must accomplish."
Tilt you said:
tiltbillings wrote:Experience cannot be seen as it is, without comment (comment: the coloring of experience via concepts), without the cultivation of concentration and awareness/mindfulness, which the Mahasi Sayadaw and U Ba Khin methods are very good at cultivating.
Do I understand you correctly, you mean experience cannot be seen as it is without comment? Or do you mean experience cannot be seen as it is without comment, as long as mindfulness ist not cultivated?

best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Post by tiltbillings »

acinteyyo wrote:Tilt you said:
tiltbillings wrote:Experience cannot be seen as it is, without comment (comment: the coloring of experience via concepts), without the cultivation of concentration and awareness/mindfulness, which the Mahasi Sayadaw and U Ba Khin methods are very good at cultivating.
Do I understand you correctly, you mean experience cannot be seen as it is without comment? Or do you mean experience cannot be seen as it is without comment, as long as mindfulness ist not cultivated?

best wishes, acinteyyo
Goodness, let me try again:

Experience to be seen as it is, free of comment, requires the cultivation of concentration and awareness/mindfulness, which the Mahasi Sayadaw and U Ba Khin methods are very good at cultivating. Clearer, i hope.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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acinteyyo
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Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Post by acinteyyo »

tiltbillings wrote:
acinteyyo wrote:Tilt you said:
tiltbillings wrote:Experience cannot be seen as it is, without comment (comment: the coloring of experience via concepts), without the cultivation of concentration and awareness/mindfulness, which the Mahasi Sayadaw and U Ba Khin methods are very good at cultivating.
Do I understand you correctly, you mean experience cannot be seen as it is without comment? Or do you mean experience cannot be seen as it is without comment, as long as mindfulness ist not cultivated?

best wishes, acinteyyo
Goodness, let me try again:

Experience to be seen as it is, free of comment, requires the cultivation of concentration and awareness/mindfulness, which the Mahasi Sayadaw and U Ba Khin methods are very good at cultivating. Clearer, i hope.
perfectly thank you. I thought you meant it like that. sometimes it's difficult for me to understand the longer an english sentence is going to be. I never really had doubts about what you said.
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Kim OHara
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Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Post by Kim OHara »

acinteyyo wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:... I do know, however, is that [Pali] doesn't always follow the grammatical structure of English. I remember when I was learning Italian in school, I found it interesting that the noun came before the descriptive word. It would be "chair yellow" rather than "yellow chair", and I've found that Pali can work like this at times. If it is working like Italian in this instance (which I suspect it is) dukkha is a description or quality of sankhara. So just like we don't need to say "chair are yellow" or "chair is yellow" and so on in order to attribute yellowness to it, there doesn't need to be an extra word wedged inbetween sankhara and dukkha in order for it to mean "all formations are suffering". That's probably as far as I can go in answering your question with my limited knowledge.
Metta,
Retro. :)
As far as I can tell, I think it's quite similar to what retro said.
It is a predicative construction consisting of two nouns and a verb.
Like "sabbe purise samane honti" meaning "All men are ascetics", but "honti" is not needed to say the same thing.
"sabbe purise samane" is enough also meaning "All men are ascetics". In the same way "sabbe sankhara dukkha (honti)" means "all formations are suffering".
Thanks, Retro, Acinteyyo.
So 'honti' in this case is the verb?
And it's missing from "sabbe sankhara dukkha"?
Is the implied verb in such constructions always "is" (or "are")?
:coffee:
Kim

Edit: corrected typo.
Last edited by Kim OHara on Sat May 01, 2010 6:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
pt1
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Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Post by pt1 »

Hi tilt,
Sorry for the delay, addressing the rest of your post here:
tiltbillings wrote: A feeling - a vedanā - is experienced during a meditation session. If I label it it during that session, that is using a concept, and that labelling happens after the time of experiencing it. While the time between the initial experience of the vedanā and the labelling might be some very small fraction of a second, it still happens after the fact of the intial experience and the labelling still involves using a concept. The labelling is not the direct experience. Direct experience is not conceptual, does not involve to use of language.
Okay, so my interest is only in the first (bolded) sentence above, because I agree with the rest (that conceptual process that follows a direct experience is not really insight). With that in mind, I wonder how is there understanding that it's feeling that is experienced - so not perception, not hardness, not nostalgia, not..., but feeling? My understanding is that this is only because dhammas actually arise and fall, and that arising and falling of a dhamma is in fact equivalent to, or is manifested as, the individual charcteristics, general characteristics and conditioned nature. E.g. in terms of feeling - it is understood that feeling arose and fell precisely because individual characteristics of feeling are different than individual characteristics of perception for example, i.e. feeling feels, perception perceives.

If on the other hand it is said that dhammas don't really arise and fall, nor become objects of awareness, then I wonder how can feeling be any different from concepts, i.e. what is it that arises and falls and has the general characteristics and conditioned nature? E.g. how does one know for example that s/he's actually experiencing a feeling and its general characteristic of anatta and not just thinking about it all (what would make such insight not really insight as defined in the beginning)?
tiltbillings wrote: During the duration of the vedanā, if we are attending without comment, with a clear, concentrated mindful mindful mind (itself a process), is any instance of that vedanā exactly the same as any other? Not likely, for the obvious reasons it cannot be. While the general characteristics of the conditions that gives what can be called a vedanā can be seen to persist for a period, but there is nothing about any of this, as experienced, that is staic or individual.
Well, okay to the first part, but the last sentence then exhibits the same problem I'm wondering about - what is that has general characteristics? My contention is that what is experienced is actually a dhamma in the sense that individual characteristic for what we call vedana is actually understood at the same time as its general characteristic (like anicca for example). So we can call vedana any way we want later on, but it's experienced (so not imagined, labelled or thought about) and that's thanks to experiencing the individual characteristics of feeling.
tiltbillings wrote: The use of concepts/laguage, which is static and individual, can help us look at what we experience, but the mistake is the assumption of the nature of the concepts - static and individual - into the actual experience, especially when it is done not as a meditative, concntrated mindfulness practice, but as an intellectual, conceptual process.
I agree, but I have a feeling here (apologies if I misunderstood) that you are equating dhammas to concepts. So while I agree that mistaking conceptual process for insight is essentially fatal, I think insight has to do with actually experiencing dhammas - in the sense of their individual and general characteristics and conditioned nature, e.g. experiencing feeling and understanding at the same time that it is feeling (so not perception, not concept, not mindfulness, but feeling) and that it is anatta and conditioned.

Best wishes
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