Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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smokey
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Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Post by smokey »

The answer is quite simple. People are putting too much effort while meditating. And I will just say wu-wei. Hope some of you contemplatives will understand.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Post by tiltbillings »

smokey wrote:The answer is quite simple. People are putting too much effort while meditating. And I will just say wu-wei. Hope some of you contemplatives will understand.
'Two things, o monks, I [the Buddha] came to know well: not to be content with good states of mind, so far achieved and to be unremitting in the struggle for the goal. Unremittingly, indeed, did I struggle and I resolved: "Let skin, sinews and bones remain; let flesh and blood in the body dry up: yet there shall be no ceasing of energy, manly energy, manly effort!"

'Through heedfulness have I won sambodhi, through effort have I won the unsurpassable security from bondage
[yogakkhemo=nibbana].

'If you, O monks, will struggle unremittingly and resolve: "Let skin ... [as above] manly effort" -- then you, too, O monks, will soon realize here and now, through your own direct knowledge, that unequaled goal of the holy life."'
-- AN II ii 5.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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smokey
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Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Post by smokey »

Let us not rely on the suttas too much.
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Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Post by smokey »

The right effort of the Noble Eightfold Path is effort without effort.
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bodom
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Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Post by bodom »

smokey wrote:Let us not rely on the suttas too much.
You are now relying on Taoism?

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Post by DNS »

Godwin Samararatne has stated that many meditators from the West try to go too fast and he has to encourage them to 'slow down' and take it easy. They want to go fast and try too hard.

And for his Asian students he has to encourage them to even try as they focus more on the devotional aspects. He tells them, "don't wait for the next Buddha."

But at the same time, persistence, determination and effort should not be underestimated as to their importance. I think the problem with some is more in regard to lack of khanti (patience).
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Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Post by smokey »

Okay. If I am not right. Here is the thing. To achieve Jhana is simple, to practice Vipassana is simple. People in Buddha's time did achieve enlightenment in a matter of months or even weeks. Why do nowadays people not achieve it during whole lifetime?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Post by tiltbillings »

smokey wrote:Okay. If I am not right. Here is the thing. To achieve Jhana is simple, to practice Vipassana is simple. People in Buddha's time did achieve enlightenment in a matter of months or even weeks.
Some did some did not. The Buddha gave that exhortation to living people. There are also texts where he tells people to strive gritting their teeeth. I am not so sure jhana or vipassana are easy.
Why do nowadays people not achieve it during whole lifetime?
It would help to have a Buddha teaching you directly and present as an inspiration.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Post by tiltbillings »

Let me add that while it can be frustrating that the practice seems hard and it seems that it is not getting anywhere, it is in the small things, in getting a little less frustrated by the bumps life presents that the results can be seen. It may not be enlightenment, but it can be a lightening up a bit in one's life.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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m0rl0ck
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Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Post by m0rl0ck »

imo its like driving, sometimes you got to put the pedal to the metal, sometimes you have to slow down and take it a bit easy. Probably helps to have a teacher to tell you which times are which.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
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Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Post by smokey »

bodom wrote:
smokey wrote:Let us not rely on the suttas too much.
You are now relying on Taoism?

:anjali:
I am not relying on Taoism, but what if today Right Effort, part of Magga is misunderstood.
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Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Post by bodom »

smokey wrote:
bodom wrote:
smokey wrote:Let us not rely on the suttas too much.
You are now relying on Taoism?

:anjali:
I am not relying on Taoism, but what if today Right Effort, part of Magga is misunderstood.
Incorporating taoist concepts like wu-wei into right effort of the Noble path is definitely going to create some misunderstandings. Right effort is no more misunderstood today than the rest of the Buddha's teachings. Also remember right effort as defined in the suttas is explained in terms of overcoming unwholesome mental states and cultivating wholesome mental states. Are you referring to energy or exertion as indriya and bala?

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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smokey
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Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Post by smokey »

What I mean is to use effort without using effort. It sounds paradoxical to an ordinary mind. Try to understand it intuitively. I am refering to mindfulness and concentration. You just have to let the mind be.
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Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Post by Kenshou »

Just letting the mind be isn't really going to be enough to uproot our defilements, I think.
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bodom
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Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Post by bodom »

smokey wrote:What I mean is to use effort without using effort. It sounds paradoxical to ordinary mind. Try to understand it intuitively.
I understand what you mean. I hear of effortless effort spoken of in zen. I prefer to follow Buddhas advice to Sona:
"... what do you think: when the strings of your [lute] were neither too taut nor too loose, but tuned to be right on pitch, was your [lute] in tune & playable?""

Yes, lord."

"In the same way, Sona, over-aroused persistence leads to restlessness, overly slack persistence leads to laziness. Thus you should determine the right pitch for your persistence, attune the pitch of the [five] faculties [to that], and there pick up your theme."
:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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