Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.

Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby smokey » Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:15 pm

The answer is quite simple. People are putting too much effort while meditating. And I will just say wu-wei. Hope some of you contemplatives will understand.
User avatar
smokey
 
Posts: 115
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:01 pm
Location: Budaševo, Croatia

Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:19 pm

smokey wrote:The answer is quite simple. People are putting too much effort while meditating. And I will just say wu-wei. Hope some of you contemplatives will understand.


'Two things, o monks, I [the Buddha] came to know well: not to be content with good states of mind, so far achieved and to be unremitting in the struggle for the goal. Unremittingly, indeed, did I struggle and I resolved: "Let skin, sinews and bones remain; let flesh and blood in the body dry up: yet there shall be no ceasing of energy, manly energy, manly effort!"

'Through heedfulness have I won sambodhi, through effort have I won the unsurpassable security from bondage
[yogakkhemo=nibbana].

'If you, O monks, will struggle unremittingly and resolve: "Let skin ... [as above] manly effort" -- then you, too, O monks, will soon realize here and now, through your own direct knowledge, that unequaled goal of the holy life."'
-- AN II ii 5.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19918
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby smokey » Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:23 pm

Let us not rely on the suttas too much.
User avatar
smokey
 
Posts: 115
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:01 pm
Location: Budaševo, Croatia

Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby smokey » Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:24 pm

The right effort of the Noble Eightfold Path is effort without effort.
User avatar
smokey
 
Posts: 115
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:01 pm
Location: Budaševo, Croatia

Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby bodom » Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:25 pm

smokey wrote:Let us not rely on the suttas too much.


You are now relying on Taoism?

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
User avatar
bodom
 
Posts: 4656
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby David N. Snyder » Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:29 pm

Godwin Samararatne has stated that many meditators from the West try to go too fast and he has to encourage them to 'slow down' and take it easy. They want to go fast and try too hard.

And for his Asian students he has to encourage them to even try as they focus more on the devotional aspects. He tells them, "don't wait for the next Buddha."

But at the same time, persistence, determination and effort should not be underestimated as to their importance. I think the problem with some is more in regard to lack of khanti (patience).
User avatar
David N. Snyder
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8218
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada

Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby smokey » Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:35 pm

Okay. If I am not right. Here is the thing. To achieve Jhana is simple, to practice Vipassana is simple. People in Buddha's time did achieve enlightenment in a matter of months or even weeks. Why do nowadays people not achieve it during whole lifetime?
User avatar
smokey
 
Posts: 115
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:01 pm
Location: Budaševo, Croatia

Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:43 pm

smokey wrote:Okay. If I am not right. Here is the thing. To achieve Jhana is simple, to practice Vipassana is simple. People in Buddha's time did achieve enlightenment in a matter of months or even weeks.
Some did some did not. The Buddha gave that exhortation to living people. There are also texts where he tells people to strive gritting their teeeth. I am not so sure jhana or vipassana are easy.
Why do nowadays people not achieve it during whole lifetime?
It would help to have a Buddha teaching you directly and present as an inspiration.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19918
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:53 pm

Let me add that while it can be frustrating that the practice seems hard and it seems that it is not getting anywhere, it is in the small things, in getting a little less frustrated by the bumps life presents that the results can be seen. It may not be enlightenment, but it can be a lightening up a bit in one's life.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19918
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby m0rl0ck » Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:01 pm

imo its like driving, sometimes you got to put the pedal to the metal, sometimes you have to slow down and take it a bit easy. Probably helps to have a teacher to tell you which times are which.
"When you meditate, don't send your mind outside. Don't fasten onto any knowledge at all. Whatever knowledge you've gained from books or teachers, don't bring it in to complicate things. Cut away all preoccupations, and then as you meditate let all your knowledge come from what's going on in the mind. When the mind is quiet, you'll know it for yourself. But you have to keep meditating a lot. When the time comes for things to develop, they'll develop on their own. Whatever you know, have it come from your own mind.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... eleft.html
User avatar
m0rl0ck
 
Posts: 1049
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:51 am

Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby smokey » Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:02 pm

bodom wrote:
smokey wrote:Let us not rely on the suttas too much.


You are now relying on Taoism?

:anjali:


I am not relying on Taoism, but what if today Right Effort, part of Magga is misunderstood.
User avatar
smokey
 
Posts: 115
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:01 pm
Location: Budaševo, Croatia

Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby bodom » Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:27 pm

smokey wrote:
bodom wrote:
smokey wrote:Let us not rely on the suttas too much.


You are now relying on Taoism?

:anjali:


I am not relying on Taoism, but what if today Right Effort, part of Magga is misunderstood.


Incorporating taoist concepts like wu-wei into right effort of the Noble path is definitely going to create some misunderstandings. Right effort is no more misunderstood today than the rest of the Buddha's teachings. Also remember right effort as defined in the suttas is explained in terms of overcoming unwholesome mental states and cultivating wholesome mental states. Are you referring to energy or exertion as indriya and bala?

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
User avatar
bodom
 
Posts: 4656
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby smokey » Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:42 pm

What I mean is to use effort without using effort. It sounds paradoxical to an ordinary mind. Try to understand it intuitively. I am refering to mindfulness and concentration. You just have to let the mind be.
User avatar
smokey
 
Posts: 115
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:01 pm
Location: Budaševo, Croatia

Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby Kenshou » Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:54 pm

Just letting the mind be isn't really going to be enough to uproot our defilements, I think.
Kenshou
 
Posts: 1029
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:03 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby bodom » Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:56 pm

smokey wrote:What I mean is to use effort without using effort. It sounds paradoxical to ordinary mind. Try to understand it intuitively.


I understand what you mean. I hear of effortless effort spoken of in zen. I prefer to follow Buddhas advice to Sona:

"... what do you think: when the strings of your [lute] were neither too taut nor too loose, but tuned to be right on pitch, was your [lute] in tune & playable?""

Yes, lord."

"In the same way, Sona, over-aroused persistence leads to restlessness, overly slack persistence leads to laziness. Thus you should determine the right pitch for your persistence, attune the pitch of the [five] faculties [to that], and there pick up your theme."


:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
User avatar
bodom
 
Posts: 4656
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby acinteyyo » Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:59 pm

smokey wrote:You just have to let the mind be.

I would say, know the mind and then let go, would be better...
best wishes, acinteyyo
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Api cāhaṃ, āvuso, imasmiṃyeva byāmamatte kaḷevare, sasaññimhi samanake lokañca paññāpemi lokasamudayañca lokanirodhañca lokanirodhagāminiñca paṭipadan. (AN4.45)

:anjali:
User avatar
acinteyyo
 
Posts: 1055
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:48 am
Location: Neuburg/Donau, Germany

Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby smokey » Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:06 pm

Yes Bodom and Acinteyyo, that is what I meant.
User avatar
smokey
 
Posts: 115
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:01 pm
Location: Budaševo, Croatia

Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby smokey » Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:07 pm

I am just not good at expressing myself.
User avatar
smokey
 
Posts: 115
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:01 pm
Location: Budaševo, Croatia

Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby acinteyyo » Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:14 pm

You're not completely off the track with your suggestion smokey. The Buddha taught the "middle way", when it comes to effort it has to be the right amount, it must be in balance with all the supporting factors and actual circumstances. Too much effort won't be good and when it's not enough effort it's also not good. This applies to the whole eightfold path.
best wishes, acinteyyo
Last edited by acinteyyo on Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Api cāhaṃ, āvuso, imasmiṃyeva byāmamatte kaḷevare, sasaññimhi samanake lokañca paññāpemi lokasamudayañca lokanirodhañca lokanirodhagāminiñca paṭipadan. (AN4.45)

:anjali:
User avatar
acinteyyo
 
Posts: 1055
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:48 am
Location: Neuburg/Donau, Germany

Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby bodom » Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:14 pm

smokey wrote:I am just not good at expressing myself.


I am reading you loud and clear. No worries. :smile:

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
User avatar
bodom
 
Posts: 4656
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Next

Return to Theravada Meditation

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 7 guests