Practise vs suttra

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Cittasanto
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Re: Practise vs suttra

Post by Cittasanto »

Peter wrote:
bodom_bad_boy wrote:Even the devil can quote scripture.
What this quote means is "Studying scripture is not enough; one must practice as well." Since no one here is advocating "study and no practice" I do not understand why you bring it up.

Honestly, if you still have a problem with my position even after my previous post then I have nothing more to say to you on the matter. Don't study, continue to dissuade others from studying, do what you want. I think you harm yourself and those around you, but that is your prerogative.

The quote by Bodom could mean (as it is from the Christian tradition this is the meaning they give)just because you can quote from scripture doesn't mean you know the meaning of the words, or just because you can quote the scripture doesn't mean the meaning is not misrepresented.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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retrofuturist
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Re: Practise vs suttra

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Manapa wrote:The quote by Bodom could mean (as it is from the Christian tradition this is the meaning they give)just because you can quote from scripture doesn't mean you know the meaning of the words, or just because you can quote the scripture doesn't mean the meaning is not misrepresented.
Yes. It could also mean that whilst someone reads words, they don't put them into practice.

I think somewhere in the Canon there's a simile of a flower with no fragrance, which communicates a similar message.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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lppaefans
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Re: Practise vs suttra

Post by lppaefans »

All,

thanks for all comments...

my feels, as long we, the buddhist, we know where we are heading to and may it be well verse in theory or well practise in actions. our main motivations counts ya.

we follow the triple gems with understanding the 4 noble truth and with 8 noble paths as a guide..

everyone have the respective practise...

wish all have a good life training. :clap: :clap:
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bodom
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Re: Practise vs suttra

Post by bodom »

Manapa wrote:
Peter wrote:
bodom_bad_boy wrote:Even the devil can quote scripture.
What this quote means is "Studying scripture is not enough; one must practice as well." Since no one here is advocating "study and no practice" I do not understand why you bring it up.

Honestly, if you still have a problem with my position even after my previous post then I have nothing more to say to you on the matter. Don't study, continue to dissuade others from studying, do what you want. I think you harm yourself and those around you, but that is your prerogative.

The quote by Bodom could mean (as it is from the Christian tradition this is the meaning they give)just because you can quote from scripture doesn't mean you know the meaning of the words, or just because you can quote the scripture doesn't mean the meaning is not misrepresented.
Yes Manapa and Retro that is exactly what i meant. Sorry for being vague and apologies to anyone who took it the wrong way. I would never ever dissuade anyone from studying the teachings and am sorry i am being accused of such. Study is important. Where else would one start? I have read and studied numerous books, suttas and commentaries and still do. However, book knowledge without putting forth the effort to practice what you have learned is useless. The pali canon was not compiled and saved for countless generations to use as coffee table reading. It was compiled to show us how to practice. I will reiterate my point , knowledge comes from books, wisdom comes from direct experience. The teachings are to be used as a stepping stone to wisdom or as a map. Once you have reached your intended destination you have no further need for the map.

:namaste:
Last edited by bodom on Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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bodom
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Re: Practise vs suttra

Post by bodom »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
Manapa wrote:The quote by Bodom could mean (as it is from the Christian tradition this is the meaning they give)just because you can quote from scripture doesn't mean you know the meaning of the words, or just because you can quote the scripture doesn't mean the meaning is not misrepresented.
Yes. It could also mean that whilst someone reads words, they don't put them into practice.

I think somewhere in the Canon there's a simile of a flower with no fragrance, which communicates a similar message.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Is this the quote you are reffering too Retro?

51. Like a beautiful flower full of color but without fragrance, even so, fruitless are the fair words of one who does not practice them.

52. Like a beautiful flower full of color and also fragrant, even so, fruitful are the fair words of one who practices them.

Dhp IV

See, so i have and do study the scripture! :rofl: Especially the Dhammapada which i love to read everyday and use as a guide in my practice.

:namaste:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Re: Practise vs sutta

Post by Individual »

lppaefans wrote:All,

I have a question to all.

I am buddhist and i believed one buddhist must do personal cultivation. That is important. To follow the 5 precepts and 8 noble truths.
I am a man who is not well vserse in suttra at all but i like reading Buddha simple short quotes and great monks quotes, i will try to put in practicse.
I like those tudong monks trainning in North east thailand with AC Mun line down. They practise in mindfulness and mind awareness.

A group of buddhism friends then told me that by doing cultrivation alone is not enough. one must be well verse in suttra.
that also applies to two monk masters reply too. One told me to practise yet the other told me to read sutta...

My feels is : Are By knowing the suttra alone, is that important??
I am a man who only goes for practise and not theory.
anyway, i a begineer. :namaste: :namaste:

am i wrong??
by well verse in suttra but without praticsing, can one get enlighten?

hope to hear more views ya. :console: :console:

hahahahaha :jumping: :jumping: :jumping:

sadhu sadhu sadhu.
From what I've seen, in order to attain enlightenment, one must overcome certain "fetters." Reading suttas might be a part of that (reading suttas is a form of dhamma practice), but it also might not be. A good question to ask is: Is there anyone in the suttas who attained enlightenment who also was probably not well-versed in the suttas?

The Buddha's teaching is called a "doctrine & discipline" (dhamma-vinaya). Regarding the dichotomy between meditation and studying Dhamma, this sutta seems to suggest that early Buddhists tended to focus primarily on one or the other, for whatever reason. There might be a reason why it is impractical to devote oneself both a meditative practice and a practice of sutta scholarship and devotion.
The best things in life aren't things.

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Re: Practise vs suttra

Post by kc2dpt »

retrofuturist wrote:I think somewhere in the Canon there's a simile of a flower with no fragrance, which communicates a similar message.
There is also, I think, the simile of the man who counts another man's cows which points to a similar message.
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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Re: Practise vs suttra

Post by kc2dpt »

Manapa wrote:just because you can quote from scripture doesn't mean you know the meaning of the words, or just because you can quote the scripture doesn't mean the meaning is not misrepresented.
This is a very good point. It is why I feel finding a teacher is so important. Just reading books by yourself can easily result in "misreading the map". Then one may practice but will be practicing in the wrong way.

Although one may argue that if one pays attention then one will eventually see they are practicing in the wrong way, such a one may conclude they have misinterpreted the teachings but such a one may instead conclude that the teachings don't work and then they give up.
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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Re: Practise vs suttra

Post by kc2dpt »

bodom_bad_boy wrote:Sorry for being vague and apologies to anyone who took it the wrong way. I would never ever dissuade anyone from studying the teachings and am sorry i am being accused of such.
I am sorry I misunderstood you.
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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Re: Practise vs suttra

Post by bodom »

Peter wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:I think somewhere in the Canon there's a simile of a flower with no fragrance, which communicates a similar message.
There is also, I think, the simile of the man who counts another man's cows which points to a similar message.
I believe you mean this passage peter?

19. Much though he recites the sacred texts, but acts not accordingly, that heedless man is like a cowherd who only counts the cows of others -- he does not partake of the blessings of the holy life.

Dhammapada 1
The Pairs

:namaste:
Last edited by bodom on Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:27 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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bodom
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Re: Practise vs suttra

Post by bodom »

Peter wrote:
bodom_bad_boy wrote:Sorry for being vague and apologies to anyone who took it the wrong way. I would never ever dissuade anyone from studying the teachings and am sorry i am being accused of such.
I am sorry I misunderstood you.
Not a problem whatsoever.

:namaste:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Re: Practise vs suttra

Post by Cittasanto »

Peter wrote:
Manapa wrote:just because you can quote from scripture doesn't mean you know the meaning of the words, or just because you can quote the scripture doesn't mean the meaning is not misrepresented.
This is a very good point. It is why I feel finding a teacher is so important. Just reading books by yourself can easily result in "misreading the map". Then one may practice but will be practicing in the wrong way.

Although one may argue that if one pays attention then one will eventually see they are practicing in the wrong way, such a one may conclude they have misinterpreted the teachings but such a one may instead conclude that the teachings don't work and then they give up.

It could also be argued the only sutta worth reading is the mind!
and searching out a teacher for guidance now and then is just as important, to make sure we are on track.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: Practise vs suttra

Post by kc2dpt »

Manapa wrote:It could also be argued the only sutta worth reading is the mind!
and searching out a teacher for guidance now and then is just as important, to make sure we are on track.
To me this is just semantics. Whether we read the scriptures ourselves and let it guide our practice or we let a teacher guide our practice and that teacher has read the scriptures and lets it guide his teaching... still we are relying on the teachings as recorded in the scriptures. In the first case directly and in the second case indirectly.
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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Re: Practise vs suttra

Post by Cittasanto »

Peter wrote:
Manapa wrote:It could also be argued the only sutta worth reading is the mind!
and searching out a teacher for guidance now and then is just as important, to make sure we are on track.
To me this is just semantics. Whether we read the scriptures ourselves and let it guide our practice or we let a teacher guide our practice and that teacher has read the scriptures and lets it guide his teaching... still we are relying on the teachings as recorded in the scriptures. In the first case directly and in the second case indirectly.
is that so?
and why did you study what I said if you found it so?
Friendship is the whole of the path.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: Practise vs suttra

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Manapa,
Manapa wrote:Friendship is the whole of the path.
Friendship however in the context of that quote however is not referring to a "teacher"... rather a Kalyana-mitta, a spiritual friend. There is for example in the suttas, talk of samatha-experts helping out vipassana-novices and vice versa does have sutta support.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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