If a stream-winner...

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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby Chula » Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:19 am

David N. Snyder wrote:Even anagamis have ... some sense desires.


A little off-topic, but wanted to make a small correction: anāgāmī's do no have any sense desire - just desire for form (rūparāga) and desire for the formless (arūparāga).
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby Wind » Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:57 am

This might not add to the discussion but I personally prefer the term "stream-enterer" rather than "stream-winner". The word "winner" puts too much emphases on a prize of some sorts while "enterer" place more emphasis on accomplishing an important step on the path.
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby Freawaru » Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:59 am

thereductor wrote:If a person were to claim on this board that they are a stream-winner, what would your thought be on that? And how would you respond on the forum itself?

It seems that people don't want to be mistaken as a stream-winner (or higher), or that those phrases that might be associated with entering the path are responded to with some venom.


I think there would be only one reason for an aryan to claim "aryanship": if it would increase the effort of people. If the reaction would be: if THAT person can reach sotapanna it can't be so hard, I can do it, too. If you ask me too many practitioners block themselves by considering themselves not able enough.

But I doubt this would be the reaction. I recall Ven. Nanavira Thera's experience with it: everybody placing him on some kind of pedestal ! :shrug:
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby Wind » Fri Apr 30, 2010 12:22 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
I would certainly consider what I've seen in their postings to date, with a particular eye for a stable and consistent temperament. Does their speech and behaviour accord with someone who realises the noble truths?


Wouldn't their past posting be less relevant prior to their declaration as indicators of their attainments? A person who realises the noble truth should be expected to have a new found temperament so I would put more weight on his future posting over a long period to see if it indeed reflect those of the noble ones rather than discounting their attainments simply because of their past misdeeds, as we know before one becomes stream-enterer they are still subject to wrong views and wrong actions.
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby acinteyyo » Fri Apr 30, 2010 12:38 pm

Wind wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
I would certainly consider what I've seen in their postings to date, with a particular eye for a stable and consistent temperament. Does their speech and behaviour accord with someone who realises the noble truths?
Wouldn't their past posting be less relevant prior to their declaration as indicators of their attainments? A person who realises the noble truth should be expected to have a new found temperament so I would put more weight on his future posting over a long period to see if it indeed reflect those of the noble ones rather than discounting their attainments simply because of their past misdeeds, as we know before one becomes stream-enterer they are still subject to wrong views and wrong actions.

And how do you suppose to be able to distinguish what is ill spoken from what is well spoken, if not being at least a sotapanna yourself? A puthujjana doesn't have right view, how could he identify a noble person. It would be nothing else but supposition. Cuz as I said, no matter how much you keep looking how one behaves, finally what you may think he is or is not, this will be not for sure, as long as you don't know the Dhamma for yourself.
best wishes, acinteyyo
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Both formerly, monks, and now, it is just suffering that I make known and the ending of suffering.
Pathabyā ekarajjena, saggassa gamanena vā sabbalokādhipaccena, sotāpattiphalaṃ varaṃ. (Dhp 178)
Sole dominion over the earth, going to heaven or lordship over all worlds: the fruit of stream-entry excels them.

:anjali:
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby Wind » Fri Apr 30, 2010 12:42 pm

acinteyyo wrote:
Wind wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
I would certainly consider what I've seen in their postings to date, with a particular eye for a stable and consistent temperament. Does their speech and behaviour accord with someone who realises the noble truths?
Wouldn't their past posting be less relevant prior to their declaration as indicators of their attainments? A person who realises the noble truth should be expected to have a new found temperament so I would put more weight on his future posting over a long period to see if it indeed reflect those of the noble ones rather than discounting their attainments simply because of their past misdeeds, as we know before one becomes stream-enterer they are still subject to wrong views and wrong actions.

And how do you suppose to be able to distinguish what is ill spoken from what is well spoken, if not being at least a sotapanna yourself? A puthujjana doesn't have right view, how could he identify a noble person. It would be nothing else but supposition. Cuz as I said, no matter how much you keep looking how one behaves, finally what you may think he is or is not, this will be not for sure, as long as you don't know the Dhamma for yourself.
best wishes, acinteyyo


I agree. No amount of speculation can completely erase one's doubts except when they accomplish it themselves.
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby Annapurna » Fri Apr 30, 2010 12:45 pm

I think we feel what is well said, because we won't resist it, but open up even to criticism.

The Buddha spoke in this way. Somebody not as accomplished may not be able to discern why he is pleased though.


With metta,

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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby Dhammabodhi » Fri Apr 30, 2010 1:23 pm

Hello,

Talking of claiming attainment of Jhanas, there are some noble people here who have done this, and to be sure I've got immense inspiration and motivation from their posts. I'm "highly underqualified" (if there is such a term) to judge someone's ariya status even if I knew him/her personally, let alone in this forum (except of course, when some people make such claims and when people start asking question go into a raging madness) . So, I'll keep quiet. :coffee:

Sorry if I'm repeating myself, but I can't begin to express how awe-inspiring it is for me to be in this forum. Thank you, all you noble people!! :anjali:

Metta,
Dhammabodhi

P.S: Sorry for my little rant there. :)
-Samāhitam cittam yathābhutam pajānāti.

समाहितं चित्तं यथाभूतं पजानाती |

A concentrated mind sees things as they really are.

-Ujuko nāma so maggo, abhayā nāma sā disā.

उजुको नाम सो माग्गो, अभया नाम सा दिसा |

'Straight' is this path, fearlessness is its way.
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby PeterB » Fri Apr 30, 2010 1:29 pm

Not at all a rant Dhammabodhi.. :anjali:
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby Dan74 » Fri Apr 30, 2010 1:44 pm

Dhammabodhi wrote:Thank you, all you noble people!! :anjali:

Metta,
Dhammabodhi



You are welcome! :sage:

Now if you start questioning me, I may go into a raging madness, but it'll be a noble raging madness.

:buddha1:
_/|\_
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby Reductor » Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:38 pm

Freawaru wrote:I think there would be only one reason for an aryan to claim "aryanship": if it would increase the effort of people. If the reaction would be: if THAT person can reach sotapanna it can't be so hard, I can do it, too. If you ask me too many practitioners block themselves by considering themselves not able enough.

But I doubt this would be the reaction. I recall Ven. Nanavira Thera's experience with it: everybody placing him on some kind of pedestal ! :shrug:


This is more in line with what I was thinking; that a genuine claim could be a great help/inducement in the practice of others. As for what the sotapanna would gain, that would be markedly less, for what gain could be better than the stream?

Of course, I don't think it likely that anyone would be raised up on a pedestal, unless done by those that know them in the flesh. Online I think the reaction would be decidedly more hostile.

But, I thank everyone who has thus far participated in this thread. I think this is my last post in this thread though.

Oh, PeterB - I didn't think that you were making a personal slight against me, or anyone else. All is good.
Michael

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72

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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby David N. Snyder » Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:48 pm

Chula wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote:Even anagamis have ... some sense desires.

A little off-topic, but wanted to make a small correction: anāgāmī's do no have any sense desire - just desire for form (rūparāga) and desire for the formless (arūparāga).


:oops: Yes, thank you.

I meant saka-dagamis have greatly weakened the cravings for sense desires and anagamis and Arahants have eradicated sense desires completely.

What has been debated here is sotapanna level, how much higher is even a saka-dagami or anagami and both still have conceit.
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby Mukunda » Sun May 02, 2010 5:50 am

retrofuturist wrote:One element you may not have considered in the above is that such questioning is also for the benefit of the potential stream-entrant in the sense that they might be deluded about their attainment, and may falsely believe themselves to be a stream-entrant when in fact they're not. Indeed, looking at some of the aspects of what constitutes stream-entry, such as that in those compendiums I provided links to, it would be quite easy to interpret these in such a way that one believed they indeed were a stream-entrant. Again, differences in the Sutta, Abhidhamma and Commentarial perspectives only go to confuse things further.


This is precisely why one should make every effort to work with a fully qualified teacher and not assume they can do it all by them self using books and on line forums.
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby Zhalmed Pawo » Sun May 02, 2010 7:30 am

Wind wrote:This might not add to the discussion but I personally prefer the term "stream-enterer" rather than "stream-winner". The word "winner" puts too much emphases on a prize of some sorts while "enterer" place more emphasis on accomplishing an important step on the path.


Hmmm... When people speak about "stream-enterers" or "stream-winners", do they usually mean one thing or two? I mean, there are two types of "stream-persons" mentioned in the Suttas - those who have attained the path of stream-entry, and those who have attained the fruit of stream-entry. Both types are Aryans. I find it very difficult to understand what people, or the Suttas, mean exactly, as nobody seems to keep these two Aryan types separate, and in many Suttas they are also 'merged together'.

So, when has someone entered the path, and when has someone attained the fruit, of stream-entry? Is there any easy clear-cut answer to this? :reading:
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby Annapurna » Sun May 02, 2010 8:38 am

I don't think there are clear borders, because when this arises, that arises.

When stream entry happens, fruit is not far, or immediately there, if you think about it, in form of greater calm and happiness through clarity.

At least that is what comes to my mind. What arises in my mind.

With metta,

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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby fig tree » Mon May 03, 2010 6:53 am

Discussions of the seven purifications describe a stage where the "corruptions of insight" arise. If I remember correctly one of them is a feeling that one should go teach people. I get the impression that one of the purposes of these cautions against proclaiming one's high attainments is to protect the person at that stage. Probably it's a helpful thing if a person going through that who "acts out" their inclination to blab about it runs into people whose reaction is cautious and sober.

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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby mikenz66 » Mon May 03, 2010 8:09 am

Here's a link explaining what fig tree refers to, which happens at the fourth insight nana:
4. Knowledge of Arising and Passing Away
http://aimwell.org/Books/Mahasi/Progres ... ml#Arising

http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Mahasi/For ... orruptions
The Corruptions of Insight

At this juncture there generally arise many strange experiences, such as:–

1. Mental visions of brilliant lights,
2. Rapturous feelings,
3. Calm feelings,
4. Devotional feelings towards the Buddha, Dhamma and Saṅgha,
5. Great energy in carrying out the contemplation,
6. Happiness,
7. The quick and clear perceiving of objects,
8. The capability in carrying out mindfulness without missing any object,
9. Automatic contemplation without particular effort,
10. Feeling of subtle pleasure in the contemplation.

The disciple therefore, is so much elated that he can no longer keep silence but generally speaks out about his experiences. He often considers that he has already attained enlightenment. This is the initial or early stage of ‘Udayabbaya-ñāna’ (knowledge of arising and passing away). However, it is a wrong path.

Hopefully the meditator has enough knowledge or guidance to get to:
Then the disciple decides that the experiences of seeing mental visions and other feelings are not the actual attainment of enlightenment, and that the correct method of contemplation to attain enlightenment is only constant observation of whatever arises. He comes to this decision in accordance with what he has learnt from the text or in accordance with the instructions of his teachers.

Though Steve Armstrong, in his Dhamma talks sometimes makes statements along the lines of: "You will believe you are englightened and that your teacher is just too dumb to see it..."

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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby rowyourboat » Mon May 03, 2010 9:12 am

Harch, unflinching honesty is the best tool to determine whether oneself is a stream entrant or not. I don't think anyone other than a Buddha can say whether another person is stream entrant.
With Metta

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Mudita
& Upekkha
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby Virgo » Mon May 03, 2010 2:13 pm

Freawaru wrote:I think there would be only one reason for an aryan to claim "aryanship": if it would increase the effort of people.

There could be a number of reasons that it could happen in a truthful situation. An ariyan could let another Buddhist know because he knows the other Buddhist would use it as an opportunity to amass a great deal of merit through paying respect or making some small offering (even a small offering goes a long, long, way when given to an Ariya). Or, perhaps, if he felt he was being treated unfairly or abused by another Buddhist who had no idea he was an Ariyan, he might let them know out of kindness for them.

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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby David N. Snyder » Mon May 03, 2010 2:56 pm

mikenz66 wrote:Though Steve Armstrong, in his Dhamma talks sometimes makes statements along the lines of: "You will believe you are englightened and that your teacher is just too dumb to see it..."


If only I had a dollar for every time I have heard that one or heard it said to a monk. :)

Some will come to a temple or Dhamma center and say something to the effect of, "I know I'm enlightened, but my teacher doesn't think so. My teacher is too dumb to see my enlightenment."

Just the fact that they are looking for certification and saying those things tells me right away that they are not enlightened. Not necessarily because stating the attainment means automatically that one is not, but rather because they are teacher shopping for one that will confirm their "enlightenment."
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